When the Church Fails Its Women: 7 Truths We Need to Tell About Creflo Dollar, Black Daughters and Violence

Yesterday, for the first time in my life, I walked out of church in the middle of service. I grew up in church; my stepfather of 15 years is a pastor; as recently as 2009, I led a ministry team  at one of Atlanta’s Baptist megachurches. Thus, my choice to get up and walk out while the pastor was speaking defied every notion of decorum I have ever been taught.

Image from madamenoire.com

But when he stood to express his unequivocal support for Atlanta megachurch pastor Creflo Dollar who was arrested late last week for committing simple battery and cruelty to a child on his fifteen year old daughter, I had to go. 

I have struggled in recent years to reconcile my long-standing faith, to my relatively more recent feminist commitments. And it is precisely because of the Black Church’s continued willingness to advocate problematic, violent, hierarchical stances against women and gay people that I continue to struggle.

According to the police report, Dollar told his daughter  she couldn’t go to a party due to bad grades.  From there the situation got real ugly. His daughter left the room, went into the kitchen and started crying. Dollar followed her, asked why she was crying, and when she indicated that she didn’t want to talk to him, she says that he  “then charged her, put his hands around her throat and began to choke her, slammed her to the ground and began to punch her,  and took off his shoe and started whooping her with it.” The victim’s 19 year old sister, who witnessed the altercation, backed up her sister’s story. Dollar, himself, admitted only to using a shoe.

In classic fashion, Dollar denied everything yesterday, as he entered his sanctuary to a standing ovation. “She was not choked. She was not punched….I should never have been arrested.” Elsewhere he said, “All is well in the Dollar household.”

Apparently, his daughters are bald-faced liars. Both of them. And apparently, they resent him so much that they would concoct this magnificently violent tale in order to have him arrested. If he thinks all is well, clearly he isn’t well.

So now let’s entertain the notion that his daughters are telling the truth or at least some truth.

What would it look like for our faith communities to be places where Black girls could testify about the violence they experience from the men in our communities and be believed? 

What would it look like for Black women, the primary attendants and financial supporters of the Black Church, to demand accountability from the overwhelmingly male leadership in our pulpits?

The most troubling thing about Creflo’s statement was the overwhelming amount of support from his female parishioners. I can’t help but notice the admixture of fear and disappointment on the fifteen year old girls face in the above video (1:19) as her mother actively sides with Creflo for the cameras. 

What would it mean for us to recognize that when we refuse to believe the testimony of other Black women and girls, it makes our own witness “for the Lord,” before the law, and before anyone else we need to believe us less credible?

Yet, I witnessed Black women coming out in full support of the “man of God” in droves because…

“We weren’t there.”

“We don’t know what happened in that house…”

“We don’t know what she did or said to provoke him…”

[What is this? Chris Brown and RiRi 2.0? (Let me leave that alone.)]

“If she swung on him first (as some news outlets reported), then she deserved it…” {And for the record, the police report in no way indicates any such thing. Even Creflo doesn’t say she swung on him.}

“If you’ve ever raised a teenager, you know how they can be…”

“He has the right to discipline his children.”

For the record, we never know the whole story about anything, if it didn’t happen to us. That doesn’t prevent us from making reasonable judgments based on the evidence. Christians use the same type of reason to profess our faith in a God-man, who was born from a virgin, crucified on a cross and Resurrected on the 3rd day. And we believe in his Resurrection, primarily on the basis of the initial testimony of some women who Jesus’ male followers weren’t trying to hear (Mark 16: 1-11). So in my view, if we refuse to believe Black girls when they testify about their experiences, we call the basis of our own witness and our own faith into question. Jesus prioritized listening to women, even when his disciples said they were being a nuisance.

Why I wonder are Black women so willing, so ready to co-sign theologies that literally support us getting our asses kicked in our own homes? 

Why have we bought into the primary premise of white supremacy, that the most effective way to establish authority is through violence? Surely, this situation teaches us that the only thing that kind of parenting does is breed the kind of resentment and contempt that will have your children calling the cops on you at 1 in the morning.

Why is it so hard for us to take a stand against Black men and tell them that there is never a reason to put their hands on us in a violent fashion? Not when homicide is the top killer (after accidental death) of Black women and girls ages 15-24.

Frankly, we need to “radically rethink” our understandings of authority, love, violence, and respect in the Black Church.  Black folks love to say, Tell the Truth, and Shame the Devil. Well here are seven truths we need to tell.

1.)   Sisters have the power to change this thing. The Black Church is one of the few places where we do have this kind of power. And the tide won’t turn, until Black women get fed up and then start to stand up, start walking out, and start taking our money with us.

2.)  Children are not our property. It is not their job to confer upon us the worth and dignity denied to us by others. We do not get to violently beat them into submission, supported by terrible “spare the rod” theologies. Everyone wants children to obey, but what do we do with Ephesians 6:1-4 which clearly, after telling children to honor their parents, admonishes fathers not to “provoke children to wrath.” Wonder why that’s in there?

3.)  Discipline is not synonymous with punishment or spanking. It was in church that I learned that discipline and disciple share the same root word. To disciple means to train up (usually in the ways of Jesus.) Aren’t there more creative and effective ways to parent? Spanking is the easy-out option. It is the option that packs the “literal” biggest punch, requires the least amount of thought, and is designed to quickly redirect undesirable behaviors. But it is largely ineffective, and rarely about actual discipline. Spanking is used to communicate anger to a child for doing something wrong. They are used to remind the child who’s boss. And the boss is the person who gets to mete out violence when the rules don’t get followed. Interestingly enough, in the Black Church, I think far too many of us understand God in these exact same terms –as the strict disciplinarian, who polices all our actions, ever ready to issue cosmic butt whoopings when we don’t fall into line. Thank God for delivering me from such thinking.

4.)  Domestic violence is not discipline. And this was domestic violence. And I find it hard to believe that a man who will beat the shit out of his own daughter, who feels biblically justified in doing so, wouldn’t beat the shit out of her mother, too. Not levying any accusations here, but I think it’s a question worth raising. Read this Black girl’s testimony and see how true it rings

5.)   Just because your parents whooped you, and you “turned out fine,” doesn’t mean the whoopings are the cause of it. Black folks are overcomers by copious circumstance. But that doesn’t mean we have to keep recreating negative circumstances for our children and calling them right and good. I had a racist sixth grade teacher who made me cry every day. I still made excellent grades and remained undeterred. If I have children, I will not seek out a racist teacher for them, celebrate their ability to excel despite it, and then claim that they excelled because of it. That is pathological.

6.)    The Black Church can’t have it both ways. If Black fathers set the moral tone for how men will treat their (presumably hetero) daughters, then Black folks cannot continue to insist that a father’s punches thrown in anger are wholly distinct from a partner’s punches thrown in anger. I’ve always found it interesting, that when we talk about the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, no one wants to critique Lot, nephew of Abraham, for tossing his daughters out the door to be raped by the men of the city. No one makes the connection that a few verses over these same two daughters get Lot drunk, sleep with and get pregnant by him, and become the mothers of tribes that create all manner of havoc for the Israelites. We are so invested in sic’ing this text on gay people like rabid dogs, that we miss it’s more obvious invitations to consider the ways in which men of God–and the Bible calls Lot “righteous”–have a long tradition of subordinating the well-being of the women in their lives to other goals that seem to be more morally significant, those aims namely being homophobia and patriarchy. But Genesis seems to insist that a father’s choice to subject his daughters to violence can cause those daughters to both resent and actively seek to humiliate their father. (Genesis 19)

7.)   Our theology will kill us if we let it.  As the Bible thumpers love to remind us: “there is a way that seems right to a man, but the end thereof is destruction.” (Prov 14:12) Consider this my remix. Jesus already died, and I refuse to let the Black Church turn me into a martyr for its causes. I refuse to stand by while Black men (and women) use bad theology about headship and Black women and men use bad theology about “sparing the rod” to heap indignities on women and children in the name of God.  Our blind investment in patriarchy, and the kind of hierarchy it promotes in churches and families is not healthy for a people who continue to find themselves on the bottom of every social hierarchy that exists. In my faith communities, being a feminist makes me suspect. But to them I say,  Jesus was a feminist. In my feminist communities, being a Christian often makes me suspect. And to them I say the same thing, Jesus was a feminist. So I am going to unapologetically let my faith and my feminism inform one another. (And keep reading great blog series like this one to help me out on rough days.) It is because I believe in Jesus and feminism, that  I don’t tolerate violence against women in any form from the men in my life, and I for damn sure, am not gonna sit up and hear violent ish coming at me from the pulpit. Black women have to become as serious about demanding that our churches are spaces where we can tell our testimonies about the violence done to us and be believed. I am determined to have a theology that is truly liberatory, one centered on grace, healing and abundant life. And if I have to raise hell and disrespect a few pulpits to get it, so be it. 

crunktastic

500 thoughts on “When the Church Fails Its Women: 7 Truths We Need to Tell About Creflo Dollar, Black Daughters and Violence

    • Honey How Old are You??? Keep on Living, your views will change. I’m not condoning the violence , But until we know all the FACTs we must not judge!! Let Go and Let GOD!! Sharing with much Love to you and the Dollar Family.

      • Oh good god [pun not intended]. Is God going to stand up for these women getting beaten? He has better things to do. I hate people like you who just let everything be God’s will and not thinking for themselves. I bet if your husband beat you and he denied it, you wouldn’t just put yourself in God’s hands.

      • WE HAVE CHOSEN TO JUDGE THIS GOD FEARING MAN , ALLOW HIM TO SPEAK AND COUNSEL WITH HIS FAMILY AND AS THE HEAD OF HIS FAMILY MEND THE ERROR’S , BUT OUR TRYING TO PASS JUDGEMENT ON HIM OR HIS DAUGHTER DOES NOT ALLEVIATE THERE PROBLEM’S THERE ARE SO MANY THAT WOULD LIKE TO SEE THIS MAN WHO MOST OF HIS LIFE HAS BEEN DRIVEN BY GOD THIS MAN HAS THROUGH GOD HAS DONE AS GREAT SERVICE TO SOCIETY … ONLY GOD IS PERFECT.

      • Would Jesus hit a 15 year old girl with a shoe?? Dollar admitted to this part. If the answer is “no,” Jesus wouldn’t have hit a 15 year old girl with a shoe, then why would Creflo Dollar think that it is okay to do so?? Shouldn’t a “Man of God” be expected to follow the precepts of that God?? Secondly, he did admit to hitting her with the shoe. He said that she was crying and disrespectful. On what planet will hitting someone with a shoe make them stop crying? If you were hit with a shoe, would you be more or less inclined to respect the person that hit you?? As long as women “Let Go and Let God,” then men who commit violence will continue to do so. Jesus said, “Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s.” In the world today, there are penalties for domestic violence, and one is jail.

      • The facts are clear. The police report reveals a father who disciplined his rebellious daughter in a perfectly reasonable manner. She suffered no long term injuries. At worst she got a scratch.

        If anything, Dollar is a coward for lying to his congregation and denying he disciplined his own child. He did nothing wrong and yet, because he fears Liberals, the coward is denying he used reasonable discipline.

      • Honey, I’m old enought and I KNOW that the physical abuse he unleashed on his daughter is despicable and unworthy of a man leading a flock, apparently of blind and stupid sheep. It’s the same, “we don’t know all the FACTS” attitude that allow male relatives to sexually abuse girls and boys because the adults can’t face the FACTS that their husbands, brothers and uncles can be so vile.

      • Kim, even if one daughter was lying, for both to hate their father so much that they both accuse him falsely would be unlikely. For them to tell the same story would be even less likely. If God exists, then this amazing woman is one of his instruments.

      • I posted something longish, then my finger musta slipped, and I watched my words drift away tto the right, off the screen…

        IM A VERRRRY GROWN, baby-boomer Black American woman – and Grandmother. THIS AUTHOR’S views don’t need to change, and possibly yours, Ms. Crosby, unfortunately, will not.

        But many more of us, as Black women and girls, need to respect and value each other INTELLIGENTLY EXPRESSING OUR TRUTHS; and BACK EACH OTHER UP when the gender-related sh** finally hits the public fan, as it does from time to time!

        We don’t need to “let go.” More of us need to GET A GRIP on mess that must change, so Black women and girls can have more fairness and dignity, and LESS HUMILIATION, in our lives.

      • First of all she is a child, secondly he is supposed to be a man of God, her father and role model and mentor…..He is the adult. To allow yourself to be reduced from ‘ A MATURE CHRISTIAN MAN OF GOD TO A MALE BATTERER’ is unthinkable. What he showed her was that if someone says and does something that you do not like, no matter how educated or saved you are, physically and violently attack them….NOT GOOD PARENTING….I am talking about the man not the megachurch preacher…..

      • Regardless of how old this woman is she has extremely valid points. It wasn’t a matter of her knowing the whole story but exposing some truth that so many ignore. There is truth to what she is saying in the fact that many leaders of the black churches are not accountable for their actions & as soon as they are accused of something they are greeted with standing ovations. They throw out the forgiveness bid as if to imply even if the alleged statement is true or not they don’t have to deal with it. No we don’t know what happens behind the scenes but it does keep mess going on with some. Remember the Eddie Long situation (boys accused him of molesting them). Creflo Dollar told his congregation we all sin & need forgiveness & Eddie Long should be no different (paraphrase). As Christians we taught to believe lies & bury our heads under the sand in the name of Jesus.

      • This is patronizing. Too, what is the business about not judging? You better make an assessment about the world around you and act on it. Whoever has all the facts?

    • I am doing the same my sister….it is the discounting of our truth without question that we as women of faith must discuss.

      • To Larrie Brady, If God were in America he would be found guilty of child molestation because Mary was an underage teen Mom. If you don’t think so, then you are condoning teenage pregnancies so Stop with the “What Jesus would do” BS.

        I have a friend I have known for many years who denied his daughter from going to a party at 15 and she called the police and told them that he raped her. He was immediately taken to jail and everyone in the community thought he was guilty including his own wife. After over a year of back and forth in the criminal justice system, his daughter, his own flesh and blood told the police that she made the whole thing up because her father would not let her go to a party where her boyfriend was waiting on her and her girlfriend. My friend’s life was never the same after going through that hell.

        Many black women are single moms who either are or soon will be raising a teenager. If you did it alone without any problems and never had to discipline them physically (spanking/belt,switch) and they turned out to be successful law abiding productive citizens, I applaud you and congratulate you, but the jail houses, prisons, teen pregnancies, abortions, teen welfare recipients and those on drugs tell a different story. This is why many men don’t want to marry women with children and those that do either don’t last or the man has a woman or women hidden somewhere on the side that he sees to escape the step parenting discipline situation. Many times it is the woman who does the ‘time out, let’s get counselling type discipline in the house.’ We can see where that has gotten us since CPS and other government agencies tells us how to raise our children.

        I don’t know Creflo personally and probably never will.
        If Creflo Dollar or any other man punches, chokes or beats a child, boy or girl, with his fist or feet then they deserve to go to jail and the children should be taken away never to return to that household, but if not and the whole thing is about a boyfriend or boys that the 2 girls planned to see, then what. Many parents with teenage girls know what they will do to see some little thuggish boy. Some of you women have done things for some boy or man that you would not dare mention on here or anywhere else. Some of you don’t know what a loving father is because you never had one. That’s why many of you black women are still single and can’t even buy a husband.

        For you who think Dollar is guilty of assault and abuse and you have great concern for the child or children then go to Atlanta and petition the courts to get custody of them. I am sure you will do a much better job of raising them than he.

      • I raised two daughters, by myself and without violence. I raised them after their cheating and abusive father took off. He took off because, after being picked up from the hospital, again, after another beating, I had enough. I know how teenage girls are. I know that they have smart mouths and stupid, hormonal brains at times. I’ve watched as my daughters fell for one amoeba brained boy after another. I also know that I could have beaten them black and blue, every single day, and it would have made no difference on that score. What did make a difference, is that I was there. I watched and talked and paid attention. They didn’t have computers in their rooms, they didn’t have TVs in their rooms, and they used the phone in my presence. I knew what was going on, I knew where they went, and I knew who they went with. If they lied, the lost privileges, the ones that were important to them. One is now married with a daughter of her own, the other is to be married soon. Both are good, strong women. Perhaps the real problem is that so many people actually think that abuse will help. Maybe, if so many people were not so quick to use violence in raising their children, so many of those children would not be in jail or in trouble. Even if those two girls wanted to see a couple of boys, hitting them with fists or shoes, or kicking them isn’t going to help. A strong person, a strong parent never HAS to resort to violence. That, my friend, is the real point.

      • Nowhere did I say anything about condoning violence. You raised 2 children by yourself and you think that is normal? Raising children without a loving father or father figure is out of God’s order regardless of how good of a job you think you’ve done raising them by yourself. Dysfunctional is now accepted in the black community as a part of our lives even though it is not the way God intended. We think it’s normal now to be raised by one parent. Why would God say children obey your parents not parent and to honour thy father and thy mother? Did God forget something when he wrote the commandments? Of course something is missing in any childs life who is raised by only 1 parent. They are handicapped. They may be good at something in life, but will never be the very best at anything without 2 loving parents, mother and father to help raise them. All those considered the very best, not just one of the best, had 2 loving parents. It is true throughout history, in business, politics, sports, and every other aspect of life. Life is choice driven and we’re all guilty of making poor and bad choices in our lives my dear. Do you believe every police report that is written to be true? I guess you accept the Trayvon Martin police report too along with the rest of them. What do you want, Creflo to go to jail and have his wife raise the children by herself so she can be considered normal in the black community? Do you want the state to take the child and put her in a foster home? Maybe you want Dollar to call a news conference and say,
        “I had a fight with my daughter and hit her with my fist, choked and kicked her and I ask for forgiveness”. He must be a mighty weak man not to have knocked his daughter out. All men that I know, if they hit a teenage girl would put her in the hospital with one punch and her face would be swollen somewhere. What exactly do you want that will make you and the rest of the Judges feel satisfied and justified?

    • Sounds like the author has had a lot of personal issues she has struggled with. You did not personally witness any of the events stated…let it wash out. Because of your positions ( I presume) there goes your struggle.

    • As a male i fully support this ladies views . The church in general from the begining has denied woman there rights an a place in the church ,from the Catholics to the to the Baptist they are all male dominated organizations ,and women would do well to do as this lady suggest. Many of these man thought they saw a “P” in the sky an thought it ment go Preach ,but it ment go PLOW.

    • this crap never made any sense to me at all. I’m like this, I am a grown woman and don’t and will not tolerate some man beating me like I am his child or property. Got my cast iron skillet ready!

  1. I doubt your opinion is the complete truth or story. She was an indignant teenager, he disciplined her, yes he could have handled it differently and so could the daughter. Be very careful from judging from the outside. We weren’t there and encouraging or instigating blind opinions within the scope of ones ignorance is never safe. I hope that this family can regain peace and privacy from the public eye …

    • The police report is linked in the article. And didn’t I already account for your objections: “we weren’t there. We don’t know what happened.” So clearly you’ve added nothing new. And I already said that I don’t think “discipline” is violence or spanking. So I’ll just stick by my original position, and you do what you will with yours.

      • Dollar’s 15 year old daughter and her father argued when he said she couldn’t go to a party Saturday night. When her father asked why she was crying, she told him, “I do not want to talk right now,” the report said. Her father charged at her, put his hands around her throat, began to punch her and started hitting her with his shoe, she told the deputy. The deputy noted a scratch on her neck

      • Yeah. I read about the scratch. Somewhere else I read where Dollar tried to explain it way by claiming that it was a long-standing scar from eczema. So I’m just trying not to get bogged down in the minutia.

      • You are certainly entitled to your opinion and it is your article. However, when speaking on “discipline,” from a biblical standpoint, there are scriptures that clearly advise parents that to “spare the rod” is to “spoil the child,” and that “the rod of discipline drives folly far from the heart of a child.” The Bible also states that when you do spank a child, he surely “will not die.” Just wanted to share, my opinion not withstanding.

      • Actually, discipline from a biblical standpoint, means “disciple.” It means to train. It does not mean “grown-ass man” choke your daughter and beat her with shoe. Period.

      • A-MEN, Crunktastic. (Not “a man.” there’s a DIFFERENCE!) LOL. : )

    • Why would you advocate privacy from the public eye. A very dangerous sentiment, particularly when physical violence is alleged. Concealing things behind closed doors does not beget truth or justice.

    • Dane,

      Having raised 4 children to adulthood I can tell you it is never necessary to beat your child with a shoe to get them to stop crying.

    • I judge him harshly. After a reasonable discipline incident he’s gone on to deny he disciplined his own daughter to his congregation. His denial gives power to the liberals and neuters a parent’s ability to discipline their child as they see fit.

      • Beating is not discipline. What he is teaching his daughter, is that she deserves to have men hurt her. Beating a child for “disrespect” will not engender respect, it is also not the sign of a strong man. Beating a child only shows how weak you feel, and how weak a position you have as a parent. My father beat me with a belt. When he came to pick me up from the hospital, after yet another beating at the hands of my husband, he admitted that, if he hadn’t taught me, through his own actions, that I deserved to be hit, that he wouldn’t be an abused wife. Those are the words and actions of a strong man. That simple admission changed my life. Creflo Dollar is teaching his daughters, through his example, that fists are an acceptable way for men to treat the women and girls they claim to love.

      • Creflo Dollar’s “denial” was in fact pretty fishy. If he *didn’t* choke or punch his daughter, he would have said, “I didn’t choke her” and “I didn’t punch her.” Instead, what he said was “She was not choked” and “she was not punched.” Criminal investigation professionals who understand statement analysis would see that as a strong indication that Creflo is lying. It’s also obvious that he lied when he said, “All is well in the Dollar household.” Yeah, right. And then of course there’s the fact that his version of his mentor Kenneth Copeland’s prosperity gospel is one long, ongoing big fat lie — “another gospel” that has nada to do with Jesus. Creflo Dollar is a professional liar, in short. That he is also a perpetrator of domestic violence and abuse is no surprise at all.

  2. Divide & Conquer is the name of the game. Unfortunately, the Willie Lynch theory is still a malignant cancer in the African American community. This issue is deeper than feminism or womanist philosophy. danereads.tumblr.com

    • You do know that scholars have disproven the validity of the Willie Lynch Letter? Google it. And if you are trying to suggest that we are race traitors because we care about Black women’s issues, then clearly this is not the blog for you. Peace.

      • LMBO!!!!!! I LOVE THOUGHT-PROVOKING, INTELLECTUALS LIKE YOU!!!!! Everything you are saying and have said is so correct.

        -a feminist man

      • Crunktastic,I think that you have a valid point about abuse being perpetrated upon black girls/women. I do, however, think that you are jumping the gun and biased by your own personal hurt when speaking about the situation of Pastor Dollar. Also utilize common sense. If in fact Dollar had attacked the young lady in the “violent manner suggested” wouldnt there be “more than a SCRATCH?” Furthermore, at best, he gave her what many of our young girls “are desperately in need of” so that they DONT BECOME RIHANNAS—DISCIPLINE and a father’s love, which can be seen in the fact that he cared enough to have a stance about his daughter’s attitude/grades/well-being.

      • Thank you! I get so tired of the idea that caring about the black community means throwing black women under the bus. Why does caring about issues relevant to black women mean that we are suddenly betraying the race? So Dane, holding up male privilege means being loyal to black people? I didn’t get that memo.

      • It doesn’t matter if Willie Lynch literally said the words attributed to him. It doesn’t even matter if he existed at all. What matters is the practice has been adopted time and time again.

        It’s a useful strategy, God himself commands it in the story of Gideon, who used divinely dictated deception to get an invading army to divide against itself and trample itself to death. It’s what the Gideon Dominion movement takes our name from.

        We must not let liberals and humanists use Gideon’s strategy against us. Christians must remain united.

      • I’m a liberal (radical) actually and I’m not gonna be united with any Christians that condone violence toward women.

      • Liberals aren’t know for taking a strong stance in favor of discipline. It’s one reason the liberal cancer of permissiveness is causing skyrocketing crime. Blacks tend to be more liberal than whites because of the civil rights movement, and they have a higher incarceration rate. That’s not a coincidence.

      • There was so much obviously wrong w/ that wille Lynch speech it originaly seemed and read like it was writtne around 1972, or so – to me. Your view was/is a very fine assessment on the church, black males and women of blind faith whose worlds would crumble at the thought of the men they worship having human flaws. In fact a similar reasoning helped bring down Malcolm

    • The malignant cancer is this philosophy that girls should silently at the alter of black patriarchy.

  3. I’m so mad–for some reason it’s not letting me post this on my Facebook account…but I ABSOLUTELY thank you for your reflections; VERY timely and accurate.

  4. Written with clarity and conviction and with foresight into the future…this is a piece that should cause the Black church to examine itself. Of course, when it comes to the specifics of what happened in the Dollar family, only they themselves will know and no doubt the truth of it will be very uncomfortable for all parties concerned. Raising teenagers who think they know everything at age 15 is enough to make most parents “lose” it but that is not the issue here…this writer is writing about the willingness of parishioners to simply hand over their minds and good judgment to others….

    • Well, no I am also writing about the assumption that when we find out “the truth” somehow we will better understand why Dollar lost it. A.) He won’t even admit to losing it, which means he’s straight up standing in church lying b.) Just like I don’t support the “I lost it and hit you defense” with a grown man hitting a grown woman, I certainly don’t support it when a grown man is hitting a child. c.) There are other more effective ways to deal with an out of control teenager than beating her up. Yes, we can be sympathetic to how tough parenting teens can be, but that sympathy cannot lead to us condoning or excusing or explaining away violence.

      • The other point I don’t understand, for those defending this abuser, how is an upset child, telling you that she didn’t want to talk grounds for anything? So he only beat her with the shoe, fine. Or he only threatened her to get her to stop crying, ludicrous but fine. How is any of the so called “reasons” for the “insert comfortable version of beating here” justified? Why, as a human child, is she not entitled to cry, or not engage in conversation when she is upset? How is that deserving of any form of punishment? How does that amount to disrespect? if we simply take his accounting of the events as ‘truth” how does that change anything? “I beat her lightly with my shoe to make her stop crying.” Really? Intelligent, church going, God fearing people..REALY?

  5. Thank you…. For this good food … Love me some good nourishment …. One question, though … How do you … Possibly suggest approaching the churches about this ? I have a hard time as it is approaching my parents with what they feel offensively are liberal, occultists, philosophical, etc. etc. ideas … Which in TRUTH they very well are ideas pulling from each of those areas … But they focus more on the sin of where the knowledge and truth comes from as opposed to receiving the truth in addition to feeling like I’m trying to be a smart ass or belittle their education … They take what I say personally … And I see a little in even their friends (who they try to have me talk to occasionally lol) so it makes me wonder … As a child in their eyes what’s the most effective way if any to approach and teach them …. So far I’m understanding so they are not willing to it’s really no need … Opposing views have lead to them feeling as though I’m disrespecting their God …. Leaves me discouraged with helping speaking my views because the holy oil and scriptures come out every damn time lol. It’s annoying and frustrating because I can feel they’re only listening long enough to comment back

    • Not sure what to tell you, honestly. In the church I mentioned in the piece, when I raised these kinds of concerns it was not received well. At all.

      As a rule, I don’t pick fights with my parents about theology. My theology is for me, and it helps me be the person I’m supposed to be.

      I think you have to let go of your need to get your folks to see your side. If they ask you questions, then answer them. But if not, don’t keep trying to school them. It just leads to resentment and conflict. It’s not our job to teach our parents. We have to let the stuff we’ve learned work in our lives, and if it is compelling enough, our parents will see that.

      And when we begin to respect their right to differ, eventually they will have to respect ours. At the same time, don’t let them put you on the defensive about your choices. And by that I mean, if they start a conversation, answer their questions and share your views, but at the point that you start being asked to justify and defend, just politely tell them that you respect them, but you have a different view, ones that you are comfortable with. Hence you have no need to try to convince them to see your side. And then remove yourself from the convo or change the topic.

      These are all strategies I’ve tried.

      • Again, I agree with you 100% on this! In the same way I don’t want others to try and convince me of a point I’ve already decided on, I’ve got to accept that others may not see it the way I do, and that that’ll have to be okay unless a greater power than myself changes it.

      • I have teenagers & I want them to be their own person but at the same time, their options are limited under my roof. Teenagers are motivated by emotions not wisdom…parents have rules for reasons. Mine are expected to follow the rules or find somewhere else to live and yes I will whoop my 16 year old son if it’s necessary. I don’t care how old you are, if you depend on someone else to take care of then you have to follow the rules of the house. I will NOT negotiate with a child. That doesn’t mean I’m always right but I make their little luxuries in life possible…the price they pay is following the rules. I’ve paid my dues and I refuse to let children “run” my house. I love them enough to know they need discipline. Clearly the youth of today are overindulged and some are just straight ganster. Also, teenagers are master manipulators and plot against authority in an effort to have their way. I value your opinion but until you have a teenager who’s convinced they everything…your opinion is inexperienced. I don’t condom abuse but there are times when a whooping is necessary. I will say that each child is different. Some are easier to correct than others.

      • The post was neither anti-parenting nor anti-rules. My mother was strict as hell, and I certainly wasn’t allowed to negotiate. She paid the bills and she was the boss. And I turned out great. What she didn’t have to do was lay her hands on me, and that’s why after I was age 8 or 9, she no longer spanked me.

        You are right. I don’t have teenagers. But I was one once. And I called and talked this piece over with my own mom before writing it, and she backed me 100%. She said if you are still trying to “spank” teenagers which is really a laughable notion, it should be clear by now that “spanking” doesn’t work. But you have to parent your own kids how you see fit.

        And I’m sorry, but a grown man getting violent with a teen girl is not appropriate. I’m not budging on this point. Period.

      • Crunktastic, if think that spanking a teenager is laughable…Girl I’ve witnessed a grow 26 year old man get his behind spanked by his Mom. Lol…we stopped dating soon after that. I agree. If you train them up in the younger years, you will not need to spank a teenager but there are some exceptions. I’m a small single mom of 6 (4 adopted & 2 biological). I have 2 teenage boys who know “Mommie don’t play Dat”. When it comes to parenting, most people don’t agree but don’t ever be discouraged by that. You have a good value system and I’m sure you’ll be a great Mom. Having kids will change your perspective (not negatively) but it won’t change your values. Keep speaking your mind girl!

      • FWIW, I have a teenaged son, and I think Kelly is full of it when she implies that you will feel differently if/when you have teenagers of your own. I’m a pretty strict mother, and I laid the groundwork for my children to respect my authority when they were toddlers. They know I mean business when I tell them that Action X will have consequence Y, because I’ve always followed through when they misbehaved. I didn’t/don’t have to beat them to get them to behave.

      • It seems as if Kelly is searching for answers and solutions – answers and solutions that she probably won’t find here. What is missing and what seems to be very significant are applications or even just suggestions on raising a teenager. What’s missing the most is the parental perspective.

        I’m sure your mom is a wonderful person and that’s great that she supports you 100%, but I don’t think that’s enough in this case despite the knowledge and authority you’ve provided in other essays/posts regarding the analysis of pop culture, self-care and the patriarchy.

        I agree that this post was not anti-parenting; it was non-parenting.
        I would wager that there are more mothers (or fathers) that are reading this than other posts and would appreciate other methods of discipline.

        I find it unfortunate that Kelly is expressing frustration, she’s expressing the difficulty of parenting a teenager and yet I understand some of how she feels because I am a single father of 3 girls (one a teenager).

        Kelly, I get it.
        I wish I could offer suggestions or guidance on more positive and effective means of disciplining a teenager that doe not listen.
        My teenager for the most part is a good young lady.
        I’ve had to make minor corrections w/ her, but that was due to my being strict w/ her when she was younger. In your case, however, I would definitely suggest counseling w/ your teen (if you can afford it). Let him/her talk it out and express his thoughts and feelings and maybe you all can come to a resolution mayhaps? Family counseling can help, too.

        Parenting is certainly not easy.
        Raising teenagers is even harder.
        I wish you luck.

      • Since I’m not a parent, I didn’t offer suggestions to tell folks how to parent. Besides, there are whole libraries of materials about that. It’s intellectually disingenuous to suggest that that has to be the goal of this post.

        This post is about calling out a preacher who appears to have committed egregious and violent acts against his daughter. It is further a call for people of faith to think about some our understandings of and investments in particular kinds of discipline. That is what I did here, and I stand by it.

      • Therein lives part of the difficulty of the call-out in this case.

        You’re not a parent, but still criticize spanking as an easy-out and also provide a link to ‘more creative and effective ways to parent.’ I’m confused how you try to call-out ones’ parenting and abuse but avoid the parenting perspective. It’s especially apparent throughout the discussion in the comments.

      • Then don’t read it. Because the implication of your critique is that I can’t have or share an opinion about anything that happens with children at all because I’m not a parent. Never mind that I was a teenage girl once. Never mind that I’m a (step)PK who has some idea about what it’s like to grow up in the house with a father who has a powerful and demanding ministry.
        To you I say, if my critique bothers you that much, don’t read it. But I’m not changing one word of it or one iota of my thinking about it. If you think that’s wrong, you are absolutely entitled to your opinion and I’m convinced enough about my own thinking that I don’t have to try to convince you to see things from my side.

      • The issue is with full disclosure.

        I am not a woman. I do not pretend to be an expert on womens’ issues and experiences. All that I can do is try my best to understand them through my colored experiences and privileges. If I’m going to write about women or a group that which I am not a part of, I disclose that.

        I think it’s unsettling that you criticize a method of parenting (spanking) despite the fact that you’re not a parent. Readers should know that initially. Further, I focused on one of your critiques. I’m unsure why or how reached such an extreme conclusion that I’m suggesting you should not discuss children in general.

        What I also think is dangerous in your critique of spanking is the conflation of abuse and spanking. Suddenly, a rising authority (who is not a parent) on feminist politics urges others to not spank, which conveniently leads to her next point of domestic violence.

        That, I find disingenuous and an unfortunate use of power. You make many (incorrect) declarations that spanking is lazy and a form of communication through anger.

        My greatest concern is with your amassing influence and opinion regarding parenting but lack a very important part of that conversation. I, of course, can choose not to read, but I’m also concerned about your readers.

      • Ahhh. A “concern troll.” I see.

        “Full disclosure.” Whatever dude.

        Your real concern is with my “amassing influence.” Mmmhmmm.

        Spanking is not necessarily abuse. I don’t conflate the two. I was spanked. I wasn’t abused. I very clearly said that choking, slapping, etc are abusive, and/but I was inviting folks to think about whether or not spanking is really as effective a disciplinary measure as we claim it to be.

        I’m done.

  6. It is SO REFRESHING to hear your insightful critique of this matter. It hurt my heart to hear the responses, supporting the abusive father, that I have found in the MSM. In typical “circle the wagons” fashion, a powerful but abusive man is protected by his community at the expense of the young, the disempowered and the women. What a message to spread! I find myself agreeing with all of your points. Thank you for writing this.

  7. Amazing. I can relate to this type of hypocrisy as a woman and as a christian. Way to be a leader and take a stand… you will get a good following and from that will hopefully become change.

  8. Not really on no ones side and a well delivered blog! My question is I once was abused by my grandmother and a previous boyfriend before! I could have called the cops on both but I didn’t! Whenever he beat me I had bruises and marks to prove it not just a scratch! When I was beat as a child I also had bruises to prove it! I don’t know who is telling the truth or not but a grown man pouncing on a young lady claiming that he smacked, punched, and choked her would have left way more than a scratch on her neck! I think before people start to judge there needs to be more facts! And even with the facts there is only one judge! They are making a big deal about this one case because he is a preacher but what about the other cases that gets reported just like this and no one makes a big deal about those! No one is helping those girls/women! If we are going to advocate for one we should be doing it for all unfortunately it can’t happen because the media is not going to bring forth every case such as this one! I just pray for the girl, father, and the family because they are going to need it!

    • So sorry to hear of the abuse you experienced.

      We have definitely advocated for abused women on this blog on multiple occasions. But here, we also use issues that happen within broader news to raise issues that are relevant to the broader community.

      I got plenty of whippings as a kid that didn’t leave bruises, but those suckas sure hurt. I think it is entirely conceivable that she was beaten and didn’t have marks to show for it. And I think the fact that her sister backed up her story and witnessed this fight, and the fact that all of them say the fight didn’t stop until the mother came into the room, indicates that violent altercation occurred.

      I also think it’s interesting that we would only believe her if he’d done the level of violence to her that leaves bruises. To me something is off about that.

      • I understand and agree! It doesn’t take a bruise to know if someone has been attacked but after reading what the daughter said to the 911 dispatcher about him throwing her on the floor then punched her in the face would only lead one to believe she had a black eye or a knot somd where on her face! My ex hit me one time in the face and immediately I had a swollen eye! I’m not siding with the preacher because I was once in that situation! I have children and would never resort to abuse! I will however discipline them whenever there is just cause! Her telling him she didn’t want to talk to him was no grounds for him to go off on her! He should have left well enough alone until they both were calm enough to talk it out! But if she did go as far as to hit him, which again is hear say, then she deserved to be disciplined and NOT beatened! I always told told my ex that no matter what a woman/girl does gives a man no right to hit her! I was abused because to him I have a “smart ass mouth!” it only lasted for 6 mo and that was enough for me to get out and leave because not only was he hurting me but doing those things in front of my children was also hurting them! If what he did do to his daughter is true then I congratulate her for calling the cops! No matter who it is they deserve whatever punishment is coming to them! I only wish I had the courage to punish my perpetrator then but I was only 24 years old and I thought I was going to hurt my daughter if her father got taken away! Good blog…

      • A few years back my friend “Stella” called me to rescue her from her house because she’d had a fight with her ex-husband and he’d hidden her keys. When we got there she was crying and seemed to be in shock, but she looked intact. I asked if I needed to call the cops and she begged me not to, saying she just wanted to leave, so we did.

        **trigger warning for this paragraph**
        Not until the next day did the bruises show around her throat. Her ex had thrown her against the wall, pounded her head on the kitchen floor, partially choked her, and kicked her hard in the stomach. We took her to the hospital and they found a blood clot in her brain. Her pupils were different sizes – but that wasn’t visible right after the attack. Her spleen was swollen to twice its usual size, but they had to MRI her abdomen to find the damage. The skin on her stomach didn’t even bruise.

        I’m white but Stella is mixed race, 1/4 Black, and she has strong skin that doesn’t show marks easily. You can grab me my arm and bruise me like a peach with no effort, but she just had faint bruises and her face looked “puffy from crying” — which was really swelling from the concussion. A careful abuser knows how to work you over without evidence. And I agree – how messed up is it that “until you leave bruises” it isn’t abuse?? That’s like “I beat you with a rod smaller than my thumb” when you shouldn’t beat someone **at all.**

  9. Thank you so so SOOO much for this!

    I have found it incredibly troubling as that so many people have found this completely acceptable — most without even bothering to read the police report or attempting to get any detailed facts on the matter. Time and time again when I’ve tried to express the sentiments you’ve so excellently articulated the past few days, I was given the same laundry list of reasons you mentioned ast to why this “discipline” was okay. It made me sick to my stomach.

    It disturbs me greatly that we continue to be a community that in many respects that condones violence against our women. A fifteen year old girl should NOT be manhandled by her own father in this way, and it truly broke my heart to find that his wife sided with him

    • We must remember this is a man, not God, not a God just a man that went to school to learn the bible and repeat and embellish it to others. We as parents are to lead our children and be role models for them as they grow. He is accused by both daughters not just one. The fact that his wife had to rush in shows that something was going on. Take the Megachurch Preacher robe off of him and see that he is a man that hit his female child with a shoe (he admits that). I have seen DFACS called in to take the children away for less. Sometimes and in some cases wives and children of so called men of God have the most oppressed and beat down spirits. Bottom line he is a grown man and she is a child and he should have showed more control, compassion and or mercy like he is expecting…..HE IS A NATURAL MAN

  10. “I had a racist sixth grade teacher who made me cry every day. I still made excellent grades and remained undeterred. If I have children, I will not seek out a racist teacher for them, celebrate their ability to excel despite it, and then claim that they excelled because of it. That is pathological.”

    Exactly. Thank you.

  11. Do the Danes and Nats in our communities ever stop to consider that since it’s undeniably hurtful, unproductive, etc. when, say, White folks cling to “let’s not judge because we don’t know all the facts” in response to racist violence, it is no less egregious to run to that position when someone – ANYONE – commits violence against our women and children? I mean, not even a pause? I am all for nuance, compassion and alla that, but it’s scarce for Black women and children in these situations. And, no, it’s not simply because he is a celebrity. This is sadly an everyday occurrence in communities of all socioeconomic backgrounds. We are ready to preach “it takes a village to raise a child” and yet are so ready to mind our own business when violence occurs. Thanks again to the CFC for not only keepin’ it real, but keepin’ it right. This is never easy, but it has to be particularly daunting to take on the church and especially painful to be silenced in an an institution that offers itself as a safe haven.

  12. Thank you for this; as the daughter of a pastor this hits home – not from physical abuse but from emotional and so much of this article still applies.

  13. This, unfortunately, happens in black homes. It happened in mine. My dad got angry at my sister and basically jacked her up. He never did it again, but it doesn’t matter because it is what I see in my mind’s eye and I remember it like it happened yesterday even though it was over 31 years ago. I never forgot since then that someone who could love me could also hurt me. This is probably why I never really trust men to be honest and don’t have easy relationships with them. This is also why I have issues with the church. The lack of responsibility demanded from men within the institution and the overall what women must do for men mantra that rings in its halls … iCan’t. Don’t wear v-necks and things that show off your figure. News flash to men – women wear burkas etc. all over the world – that does not stop you one little bit from being interested. Wolves walk around in sheep clothing and present themselves as Godly men yet prove to be just whores waiting for fresh meat. No discussion about them either from the pulpit – cause all immoral things are women’s job to hold down.

    I do not dispel spankings, most folks DO try to go through the mind before popping a kids behind – I also know that there are some people -men and women – who beat their kids and think it is discipline. Dollar wanted to control his kid and she is getting to that age where it is becoming impossible. This young lady probably has a mouth on her, I did at this age, and she hit the right buttons. In his rage due to what she said – in his anger – he did something he cannot take back, and has damaged the relationship with both of his daughters by lying and not admitting what happened and apologizing for it. He could begin correcting this with truth, but truth comes at the premium of admitting what he has done. But That. Ain’t. Happening. And I do not see the women/people of the church demanding it or expecting better relationships/partnerships btw men and women.

  14. PREACH, PREACH, PREACH, PREACH, PREACH!!! I’m exhausted from all of the debating on this issue (the Facebook discussions have been off the chain). I stand with you. I could go on…but you really said it all. Consider this SHARED. Thank you!

  15. Good Afternoon, It would seem that the main premise of your argument is to challenge the church sanctioned abuse of women, whether child or adult. Am I to surmise that you believe had this been one of his Sons, that he would have not disciplined in this manner? What do you think he would have done to his Son whom he perceived was being disrespectful? Do you seriously believe that he went to speak with her and her response was i don’t feel like talking right now, and he began to choke her with no further provocation? as a father of a 15 year old myself, who actually lives not far from the Dollars. No I am not a church member and I actually have been quite critical of his ministry at times.

    I am here to tell you that the level of disrespect among our youth is at a crisis point. I do not condone the choking of a child but I do support his right to discipline his child whether girl or boy. Often times we come to a situation and view it in a vacuum. We fail to realize or take in to account all that happened that led up this situation. I know I have been there. There is no easy solution and I feel your challenges with the churches blind support at times. But I fail to see the need for an open condemnation for a father who is trying his best to raise his children in a society and community fraught with negative influences and children with senses of entitlement but very little respect and discipline.

    Respectfully,

    • The level of demand for respect among our elders is also at a crisis point. The failure to garner economic and political respect from jobs, bosses, spouses, and the neighbors has in some way, exacerbated the need of some parents to exact that respect from those the weakest and undeserving of such a burden. And for the record, respect isn’t “beaten out of you” it’s earned.

      More importantly, for all of those people who lament the crisis like levels of disrespect being exhibited by our youth, have you asked yourself how that came to be? If all of these wonderful, thoughtful, hardworking, loving parents did nothing but ‘raise them right’ how did they end up such disrespectful terrors? If the good reverend had been parenting with love and kindness for 15 – 19 years then how did his child/ren just wake up one morning and decide to abandon all the good and godly lessons he gave them, in favor of “crying in the kitchen?” If the young are really this bad and out of control, where does the fault for that start if not with the parents and the elders?

      And HOW does a child crying and not wanting to talk because they are upset reach being viewed as unjustified entitlement? She is not allowed to cry or be upset on her own terms because he’s her father? Seriously? Her humanity, right to be upset, to cry in peace, that too has to be at her father’s pleasure or she is deserving of “discipline”?

      And we have laws that say that if a person makes rude or insulting statements, then you are generally not allowed to meet those statements with violence. Generally there has to be some perceived fear for your own safety to justify violently reacting to comments from another. Why would a child not be deserving of these same protections? Beating someone because they are crying and you don’t like how they responded to you is evil. That is not of God. That is not of any God worth believing in. And it’s illegal, even if you are the parent.

      • Yes! The “children don’t have rights” mantra was repeated incessantly within my family (extended, immediate), and that was often the case in my household and others. You know “oh you want to cry? i’ll give you something to cry about”. The level of this need to control–as opposed to parent–can be so very unhealthy.

  16. Very well written article which does raise some issues that need raising. However as with many issues that are raised in church the brush is too broad. When we do more than read the word but study it what we find is people just like us. If Jesus was here today he’d grow extremely weary from beating folks out of small and mega churches. The Bible is full of messed up people just like us, yet God still used them even though they had issues because God looks at the heart. When you walked out the church services continued on nothing stopped. You feel the way you feel and have a right to do so, not only are women mistreated in our homes and churches but people in general are both male and female. We tend to forget that it was not the World that killed Jesus but the church of his day he was no threat to Rome they could have cared less. It was his people the church of his day that hollered “Crucify Him” We will never learn the truth of what happened in The $ household because they have too much to lose. However we can try to make a difference in our own homes and churches. My Dad was what by today’s standards abusive but I Thank God for it because it Kept Me From a Burning HELL !!! Bringing Lot in is a whole different story it is nowhere as simple as you stated and you have to study the Word to really understand what was going on. (2Pe 2:7) And He delivered righteous Lot, oppressed with the lustful behavior of the lawless. Lot had issues yet this scripture refers to him as righteous you have to study the word and dig deep to understand this. (Pro 23:13) Do not withhold correction from a boy, for if you beat him with the rod, he will not die.
    (Pro 23:14) You shall beat him with the rod, and shall deliver his soul from hell.

    • I’m sorry that you think your father’s abusive behavior kept you from going to hell. I wouldn’t reason that way.

      2nd, Given the pervasive violence that is a part of our history, beating our children with “the rod” does incomparable damage. And Jesus gave us the right to challenge Scriptural teachings that foreclosed our healing when he defied those who told him He couldn’t heal on the sabbath. “If you beat him with the rod, he will not die,” but isn’t the larger goal not about death but about how the child lives. Yes, clearly, we believe “a spanking won’t kill you,” but I thought discipline was about training, not about punishment. And I’m sorry, but a rod ain’t got nothing to do with folks eternal destiny. And no good sound Christian theology should teach that it does.

      And while I am still ultimately deciding whether I would spank a small child (for instance popping their hands if they got too near a hot stove or electric outlet), I’m pretty clear that I wouldn’t beat a teenager. If corporal punishment hasn’t worked by the teen years, it won’t start working then.

      Finally, I think it’s clear from the post, that I “know” the word and have studied it deeply. And if it isn’t clear, for the record, I have. You and I just come to different conclusions.

      • Jesus never really challenged scripture he challenged the way the church of his day just as today takes things out of context. How they went to far to the extreme. When put in context we see things clearly. Considering that Jesus was and is the Living word the only begotten son of God. Who were they to be questioning him about anything. The disciples said what manner of man is this that even the winds and the waves obey him. The whole scene was silly it would be like me trying to tell Henry Ford about cars just because I always drove a Ford. As far as the Rod and eternal destiny once again let’s look at things in context (Pro 23:13) Do not withhold correction from a boy, for if you beat him with the rod, he will not die.
        (Pro 23:14) You shall beat him with the rod, and shall deliver his soul from hell. Do not withhold correction we can stop there the use of the Rod or spanking whatever form of corporal punishment a parent deems appropriate. They are tools of correction, teaching right from wrong, good and evil, heaven and hell, so as the rod is incorporated in the process of correction you are delivering their souls from hell. As far as my Dad is concerned he did what he felt he had to do. 16 years ago I was hit with a Chronic Illness if it were not for the Word of God and the toughness that my Dad instilled in us i’d never had made. He left here just like a true warrior of the Lord quoted the 17 chapter of John asking God’s protection over us as Jesus did his disciples. After he finished he said his goodbyes to my mom and brother then went home to Glory at almost 94 years old. It was amazing he left here just as he always said a true child of God leaves this earth I will never forget that.

  17. Thank you so much. I read the police report, which was chilling. What struck me was that the sister was so fearful of her father, that she made up a story to the police while in his presence, but was able to tell a different story when she was by herself. Discipline or no, a daughter (or son for that matter) shouldn’t be that afraid of his/her parents that she can’t come clean. Now, on top of the physical violence, they have to experience the psychological threat of what may happen if they “step out of line”. I don’t go to church, but I am praying for their courage, and voice.

  18. I am still on the fence about the issue and would need more evidence but I WILL say that i dont tolerate ANY kind of abuse towards women and i draw the line btwn discipline and flat out abuse. You dont discipline a girl like you do a boy, you dont want a young lady growing up thinking its OK to be hit like this etc. And while i really just want to keep my mouth shut on whether the story is true or not, i do LOVE the side that you have presented to me oh so well, i agree with some of the commonalities. And last but not least UNIVERSAL church when it happens to one its a reflection of us all….its paramount to keep each other lifted up in particular those in authority [I Timothy 2:1-2]

    • actually, you shouldn’t discipline boys in this way either. it does just as much, or more, psychic harm. i work with young black boys all day and the pain that they are not allowed to express usually goes right to people thinking that they are “boys” and thus strong enough to take this type of “discipline” – whether physically or emotionally it leaves a scar on both genders.

    • Women are more fragile, but I saw nothing in the police report to be concerned about. The worst “injury” she sustained was a scratch. He hardly touched her.

      • “He hardly touched her.” TOUCH? I am a Reiki practitioner, and the word touch, and what touch is, means a lot to me. Has a furious adult ever overpowered, hit and choked YOU? When you were 15? Obviously, terror means nothing to you. Bravo for you, huh?

      • Reiki?

        I’m not interested in a practitioner of new age witchcraft. You are a con artist selling Satanic magic as if it were medicine. You are a demon leading souls to Hell, and your opinion does not matter to me. You have abandoned Christ and all humanity, making you a valueless husk. Only God sees value in you, and only then if you turn away from your witchcraft and return to Christ.

        To quote Jesus, “Get thee behind me Satan.”

      • You may not watch a lot of combat sports, but as someone who does, I can say that, although some people can take one hit and bruise, or one perfectly placed hit and start bleeding, people can take multiple blows to the head without showing visible damage. People can suffer concussions and look perfectly fine. Her sister would not have told the same story if it were a lie. There would have been inconsistencies marked down in the police report.

      • I don’t doubt the accuracy of the police report. I suspect both girls were telling the truth.

        I do not however think there was anything wrong in how he disciplined his daughter. I think a belt to her rear would have been a better choice than a shoe to her trunk, but he knows his daughter better than I ever will.

        I suggest you read the book “To Train Up A Child” by Michael and Debi Pearl

      • Peter, I have to pray that you are just a troll with no interest whatsoever in truth, and that you don’t actually believe the things you’re saying, but I’m still going to try to engage one more time. The book “To Train Up A Child” has been directly responsible for more than one child being beaten to death. That disqualifies it entirely as a parenting resource in my book.

        That said, I honestly can’t believe that, on the one hand, you’re saying you believe the police report and the eyewitness report, yet you still say there was nothing wrong with the action taken. CHOKING his daughter? SLAMMING HER to the ground? PUNCHING her? In response to her CRYING. The shoe was abuse in and of itself, but, so long as it wasn’t steel-toed, it was by far the tamest thing the report and eyewitness account say that he did to her (which is why it’s the only thing he admitted to doing). Peter, if you think that is an acceptable form of discipline, something is seriously wrong with your head, and I can only hope that any kids you have or will have never piss you off by crying too much.

      • “The book “To Train Up A Child” has been directly responsible for more than one child being beaten to death.”

        Every medical intervention on Earth causes Death now and then. The same is true of seat belts. Do you oppose seat belts and modern medicine as vehemently as you do a book on child discipline?

  19. “we believe in his Resurrection, primarily on the basis of the initial testimony of some women who Jesus’ male followers weren’t trying to hear ” what a HUGE leap. it wasn’t just based on initial testimony. the evidence was corroborated.
    And accusing someone of a wrong is completely different from claiming that they were resurrected. even the Bible has protocol for accusing someone of a crime.

    she’s just clearly has her own personal gripes with “the black church”, and saw this as another chance to jump on it. this story is so silly. i’m not even creflo’s biggest fan, but it is clearly a case of sensationalism.

  20. Its not simple battery when your child is being disrespectful, its called disapline. When people don’t have teenagers they really do not understand.

    • Then how is it the millions of people raise teenagers — good kids who stay out of trouble – without beating them? No, it is not the norm to beat your teenagers. And the kids who do get it find solace in all the wrong places.

      • Some people are blessed with obedient children. Others must turn a disrespectful child towards obedience and Christ.

        By your logic, mountaineers should only pack the gear needed to climb a hill. Soldiers should go to war with deer bows.

    • No, it’s not called discipline. Discipline is about instruction and training proper behavior. If anything, it’d be punishment, but punishment should never be applied in anger, and never involve hitting a child in the face, choking them or beating them with anything, especially a shoe.

      If you don’t understand this, please, for the sake of your child(ren), take a parenting class.

    • This is terrible. What you’re really saying here is that teenagers are so maddening and infuriating, that you as a loving parent will *want* to choke the life out of them or knock them into next week. THAT DOESN’T MEAN YOU SHOULD DO IT. You’re raising that hand to your child out of anger. Thar’s what makes it abuse. I dare say you are the one in need of discipline — self-discipline — in that case.

      I have a toddler, but I WAS a teenager. As were we all. Did your parents choke you for back-talk? Did they beat you with a shoe for perceived disobedience? Did you get punched by your parents as a teenager? For me, the answer is certainly no. And I maintain, if you started with a little pop on the butt, and have found the violence escalating to where choking and punching are acceptable ways to discipline, then it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see that putting your hands on your child isn’t doing the trick. You need a new strategy. Or do you just escalate th violence and foolishly hope for a better result? What next? Water-boarding?

      • My father preferred a belt to a shoe. My mother preferred a broom handle to choking. The choking was clearly anger, but he caused her no harm, There was no need for the police to be involved.

    • It is not discipline when you BEAT a child. It is abuse. Spankings (which, as many people have said, you shouldn’t be delivering to a 15-year-old, in any case) can HURT without DAMAGING. Beating someone with a shoe, slamming them into the ground, choking them, and punching them is not discipline. It is violence. If you have teenagers and you think it would be OK to choke them or punch them, then I have to say I’m very worried for the safety of your kids.

      • Your view on child discipline is liberal foolishness. Read “To Train Up A Child” by Michael and Debi Pearl for a more accurate and useful view of child discipline.

      • Peter: Note that I didn’t say spanking was wrong and that it shouldn’t be done. I said that it can HURT without DAMAGING. The objective of a spanking is to punish your child with a small amount of pain to prevent a repeat of bad and/or dangerous behavior, not to potentially injure them and psychologically scar them for life.

        There is a world of difference between beating then choking a child versus spanking them, but you apparently don’t care, because questioning any parent’s disciplinary methods, no matter how extreme, must make someone a bleeding heart liberal who just can’t stand the thought of a parent spanking their kid.

  21. This is so Judgemental, get a life people, Creflo is a man not God, this man has faults, you hippocrites , He whois without sin cast the first stone. I”m so tired of religious bigots that dont have compassion for anyone. God help you, stop judging people!!!

    • “Let he who is without sin” was not a metaphor. These were people holding actual rocks about to crush the skull of a woman accused of adultery before Jesus stopped them “passing judgement.” That is not the same as verbally acknowledging that wrongdoing *might* have occurred, and if so, how people should handle the difficult issue of wrongdoing in a tight-knit community while respecting both the wrongdoer’s humanity and the grievances of the wronged.

      • AMEN. no one ever puts that verse into context.
        It amazes me when people who are so eager to judge the people in their congregation at a word from their pastor suddenly step back and lose their ability to “examine everything carefully” (1 Thessalonians 5:21) and forget that every person, pastor or not, is human and capable of human sin. It scares me sometimes how much authority is given to pastors in modern day churches. not a biblical model at all.

    • No, we all actually should continue to judge and judge with abandon and enthusiasm. Judge constructively, judge with sensitity, judge with concern for the benefit of the weakest among us. We as a community, a people, a country should be enthusiastic in our attempts to hold our so called “leaders” accountable for their behavior, especially when that behavior causes such harm to the mind and body of young people.

      Being without sin or with sin in my case has nothing to do with holding someone accountable. We should as “humans” exercise our God given right to hold each other to a standard of decency. A father and a man who professes to speak with authority from God should not be able to hide behind that bible when his behavior violates the very spirit of the religion he espouses.

      This conversation is healthy and for many, a healing one. It serves no good nor any God to remain silent especially if that silence aids in the potential/continued abuse of a child.

  22. This is hilarious. I do agree with some elements of your presentation but take a little issue when someone presents themselves as Christian, but turns right around and uses language like that.
    Also, I’m seeing the word “feminist” being hurled about like a sword. The only message I get from that is that you are yet another male-basher bent on pointing out our flaws as straight up crimes against humanity. People like you forget anout

    • Being Christian doesn’t mean you can’t use profanity. By all means, call bullshit when you see it; it’s just a word, and it hurts no one.

      I don’t see male-bashing anywhere in the above piece, and I’d love for you to point it out. Is it male-bashing to say a father was wrong to beat his daughter with a shoe? Is it male-bashing to say a father was wrong to choke his daughter? Is it male-bashing to say a father was wrong to slam his daughter to the ground? Is it male-bashing to say a father was wrong to punch his daughter?

      If that’s male-bashing, then I engage in male-bashing all the damn time!

      Or is it male-bashing to call out another pastor who supports the father who beat and choked his daughter? Is it male-bashing to insist that, enough is enough, it’s time to call bullshit and demand that the church that preaches the word of Jesus Christ quit implicitly condoning abuse?

      Just because you hear people claiming that “feminist” means “man-hater” doesn’t mean it’s true. Open your eyes, read what this amazing woman wrote, and tell me one word that is “male-bashing” in her post.

      Child abuse is child abuse. Spousal abuse is spousal abuse. Calling these things out for what they are is not “male-bashing,” and if you think it is, something is very seriously wrong.

    • Yes BK. my sentiments exactly. I don’t agree with abuse of any form but I do know that as a mother of teenagers and now semi grown adults ( they are of age but still live home) my rules are my rules and if they don’t like them, then move. I am not getting much of of this, the more I read the more I heard a bitter angry woman who probably wrote this out of hurt from a break up. How about for once we stop trying to separate genders and find a way to come together as people.

  23. Thank you so much for writing this. You are my new hero. EVERYONE needs to read this, and I will do my best to make sure that they do. God bless you a MILLION times! :-)

  24. This article is important because it brings to light lots of real and important issues we need to discuss. My issue with it is that it mixes two situations that in my opinion should be discussed exclusively. There is the issue of parenting, and what is too much discipline, and do Black people overdo it, and if so, why? Then there is the issue of do we overlook the sins of the church, and how does that influence the treatment of Black women?

    As a parent, I don’t believe in spoiling the rod. I don’t use my rod very often at all, but I have spanked my child. I recognize that when I want to hit him, it’s generally more about my anger and frustration than it is about his infraction. Therefore, I step away, go into another room and do what it takes to deal. Most of the time this works, but… it’s hard. I am not by any means defending Creflo, because I don’t see how choking is acceptable at all.

    That being said, while I don’t ever see why a person would want to beat their child to the white meat, I understand how challenging it is. We live in a society that blames parents for everything, but rarely gives them accolades when things go right. So I can see why parents are even more scared of their kids making errors in the first place. I will forever be grateful for finding this poem:

    On Children
    Kahlil Gibran

    Your children are not your children.
    They are the sons and daughters of Life’s longing for itself.
    They come through you but not from you,
    And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.

    You may give them your love but not your thoughts,
    For they have their own thoughts.
    You may house their bodies but not their souls,
    For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow,
    which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
    You may strive to be like them,
    but seek not to make them like you.
    For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.

    You are the bows from which your children
    as living arrows are sent forth.
    The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite,
    and He bends you with His might
    that His arrows may go swift and far.
    Let your bending in the archer’s hand be for gladness;
    For even as He loves the arrow that flies,
    so He loves also the bow that is stable.

    It has influenced my parenting style more than anything.

    As for what I see as the second (although no less important) issue, the treatment of Black women in church, you are spot on, sista!

    • The disproportionate incarceration rate of black males makes it crystal clear that if anything, black parents are not disciplining their children enough.

      If more fathers cared enough to take of their shoe and spank their children, there’d be fewer black youths in prison.

      • I will bet every single person sitting in prison right now got hit as a child. Also, people are forever complaining about how “back in the day” kids stayed in line because they got spanked/hit/whatever…yet, black men taking up too much space in prison is not a new phenomenon.

  25. Thank you for having the courage to write this article and for sharing it with us. Last year, I wrote an article entitled “Why I Probably Won’t Spank My Kids.” And the backlash was amazingly robust, to say the least.

    Most people said I had “no idea” what I was talking about because I’m not a parent. Some even questioned my Christianity. I believe that I don’t need to be a parent to have a moral compass, and furthermore, I don’t think the best time to start developing it is when I have a child.

    Thank you again for writing this article; I appreciate it!

    (My article is here: http://www.awordorthree.com/2011/05/why-i-probably-wont-spank-my-kids.html)

  26. This was brilliant. Thank you, thank you, thank you for this post. And, Amen. 1 Corinthians 16: 13-14.

  27. The black church, in so many ways, is problematic because it can never be reconciled with Christ and the gospel. Black culture and the black experience takes precedence over proper exegesis of the scriptures. Ultimately, it becomes more important to be “black” in every sense of the culture than it does a follower of Christ. The gospel is lost in all of this because we start with our culture and within our culture it is expected that we have an unquestioned leader who we follow and respect. When that unquestioned leader has a gospel based on prosperity, or any other doctrine not justified by scriptures, when context is considered, then things like this happens. These actions just tell me that Creflo Dollar is bigger than Jesus, because he has permission to avoid accountability.

    I wonder if it would be easier to reconcile faith and today’s issues (i.e. gay rights, feminism, etc.) if Christianity were based in the context of Christ and the gospel as opposed to the black experience.

    • I wonder if it would be easier to reconcile faith and today’s issues (i.e. gay rights, feminism, etc.) if Christianity were based in the context of white Christianity and the gospel as preached by Europeans as opposed to the black experience.

      Fixed that for you.

      Christianity is never without racial context. It might be if it had never been imposed on Africans, Asians, Indians, etc. in a deliberate and calculated attempt to supplant local belief systems, control, rape, terrorize, and enslave. Unfortunately that’s how most black Americans became Christian — it was racial from the get-go. And we have since used it as a source of strength as well as suffering, which no doubt rankles for all those white missionaries who thought it would be a great way to shut us up. (Another reason we should work to fix what’s broken within black churches. The past is the past and cannot be changed, and since we’re here, we’re only hurting ourselves with this sexist bullshit. Time to reclaim the power without the poison.)

      Don’t like it? Here’s what you can do. Go to all the white churches in this country — starting with them because they started it — and tell them to start basing their interpretation of Christianity solely on the gospel, as opposed to basing it on the white experience. Because they do, and you damn well know it. When they stop, the rest of us might think about it.

      • Our own racial bias does influence the way in which we express our Christianity, but the mode of our interpretation should not change based on our cultural experience (i.e. Liberation theology). The bible has an original context and there are both Black, White, and individuals from various backgrounds who, while they obviously express their Christianity with regard to their cultural experiences, they do not muddy the waters of biblical interpretation with it (i.e. the Christian artist Lecrae is a good example). It’s a tall order to polarize the church into 1). The black church: has it’s own problems but a necessity to continue to the ‘good fight’ and 2). the white church: ethnocentric and parochial contemporary ‘white devils’. Both Black and White Christians (you know, the evangelicals who still support Romney with egg on their face) who endorse the need for a segregated church and a predominant ‘good’ culture ignore the basic biblical theology of man: for we are all born sinners. Therefore, the ‘goodness’ of both our cultures are flawed to a certain degree and are in great need of redemption.

        Now, when one takes the bible, in it’s original language, as a flawed and errant document my thoughts do not mean much of anything because they are based on the inerrancy of the bible.

      • I’m at pains to see how the theology I’ve offered here isn’t Christ centered. Frankly, I’ve done a version of what you have asked, which is to use Jesus as the standard to evaluate our practices and to consider the implications of those practices in light of what it means to be Black and female.

        I am theologically liberal, but for the most part here, I offer scriptures using fairly conservative hermeneutics, meaning that I stick to what is in the text and what can be reasonably implied from the texts I cite.

        So it seems like you want to reject liberation and feminist/womanist theologies on face, rather than attend to the actual ways I’ve invoked theology and the Bible here. And one cannot defend oneself against those kinds of attacks. Nor will I attempt to.

        Thanks for reading.

      • The Universalist Unitarian is a predominantly-white (but very multicultural, comparatively speaking) ministry very much based on the Gospel (i.e., love, social justice, etc.) and not white supremacy…ironically, Id’ put money on most blackfolk I know looking at a typical UU assembly and call it “White People shit.” All that to say I don’t think it’s as cut and dry as you say.

    • The issue, in my view, isn’t reconciling anything to the gospel. The church is interpreting things fine…the Bible (both the old and new) is riddled with patriarchy because of the time in which it was written. The problem is the idea of taking a 5,000+ year old book and trying to live by what it says in 2012…I say that this is foolish. No one thinks to say, hmm, this makes no sense, or..maybe…this is just flat out wrong…because when you take that line of thinking farther and farther…questioning the “wisdom” of god is usually the result. That’s where it took me and that’s is why I am agnostic.

  28. Thank you, someone understands, I have always told my husband and son the way you treat your sister our daughter is what she will expect from all males she meet. Shame on you (Patsy) Moms, these are our daughters -have we not seen enough. Creflo may need some parenting classes, but because he is Creflo he gets a pass. I think not!!!!

  29. It amazes me that anyone would condone an adult man using corporal punishment on a teenage girl and calling it discipline. I taught children who never had the rod spared yet still managed to behave inappropriately. Fifteen may be a difficult age, but pick up another book besides the bible if you’re confused about the development of your teenager. They all have smart mouths. They all don’t get choke slammed, though.

  30. Sounds like the author of this articles is a product of abuse. But what Pastor Dollar experienced was a matter of putting a child out of order back in order and the society she is raised in tells her it is OK to call the cops. I am glad that my daddy put me in check. For that reason i am a successful adult. It is a total direspect to your parents home to try to go to a party at 1 a.m. She had what the cops said was a “superficial scratch on her neck. If we don’t get back to checking our kids they are going to fail in the future.

    • Actually, I wasn’t at all abused. The last time I received a spanking was at age 8 or 9. When I discussed this post with my mom last night, she agreed that if you are still “spanking” your children at 15 something is wrong. Moreover, she found Dollar’s behavior repugnant. And as I also said in the post, I’m a PK. My stepfather and my mother got together when I was 15. He has two other daughters who are around my age, daughters who did all manner of craziness. And my preacher father never raised his hands to them as teenagers, even when they were disrespectful and blatantly broke rules. So in fact, I have a real good personal model for the positions I took in the post. I guess you should try again to figure out what is wrong with me now that your abuse scenario has gone to shreds.

  31. Insightful yes…but you kind of did the same thing. You have him condemned and clumped (when you mentioned Chris Brown) and like all of us don’t know the full story. Personally I have said this for years (and no, I don’t have children but I was once a child)…every child doesn’t need to be spanked- some respond to the “bass in your voice” technique. But oh my sister, there are some where it’s gonna take more than bass, punishment (no phone, tv, car, etc). You can have 5 children and all of them may require you to rethink how you discipline them. Did something happen in that house…yes? Who knows for sure, only- Dr Dollar, his two daughters, and the Lord above. Lastly- would it have been better if her mother was the one that disciplined her?

  32. I saw someone make a really great point. There needs to be more dialogue that includes parents of teenagers. I don’t doubt he might have lost it when the teenager got completely disrespectful. I saw it with my own eyes when my older sister demanded to leave the home to visit her boyfriend. She didn’t like that she received a “whooping” (no chocking, fighting, wrestling, etc….just turn around and take it) so she went to school and told them that she was consistently being abused for no reason. That placed my father on 2yr probation because they believed her. She got her way and moved to her mother’s house and of course, she got pregnant 3 times before finally marrying….even now she’s unstable and regrets what she did. At the same time, I’ve been there when my biological father beat me because he wanted information about my mother’s new work schedule. He picked me up for my weekend visit, yanked my hair so hard that my head hit the emergency break. In the end, I see both sides being a possibility. I also see many people who already can’t stand the guy rushing to take sides because of their own experiences and the plain lack of concern for his theology. People who rush to both sides are irresponsible since no one was there. I notice many telling parents how to raise their teenagers and they don’t even have children themselves…lol. No one knows what teenagers say and do to push their parent’s buttons. And I’m not condoning a knock out drag out fight either. But this shouldn’t just be able black father’s and daughters. You know how many mothers resent their daughters and do much worse emotionally and physically to their daughters. And let’s not forget the young black boys who are beat mercilessly by their father’s because that’s all they know how to do when it comes to punishment. In the end, I don’t see anyone winning BUT we should be able to talk without judging. Because no one can hear beyond a pointed finger.

  33. I with Sister Girl on this! Stop the violence, ignorance and hypocrisy in our church communities, and then our social and family communities will be able to see, feel, know and accept Christ for who he is and what he is here in our lives for. Those old testaments and new testaments scriptures are there for our learning; yet we have to be wise enough to know how to apply them in this day and time.

    One of my Sunday School teacher, I remember growing up in church, always use to get abused physically from her husband. She would would be wearing sunglasses in church every other Sunday. Sometimes, I use to notice the bruises to her face. As a young boy, I knew what was going on, because I too witness many times my father beating the life out of my mom. So I knew what it looked it. I am sure others who were older in the church, could see and/or knew as well. Yet, like my mom, she was encouraged to stay with here husband because he was taking care of her and the children; and besides, if they were to leave, where would they go? Which man in their right mind would have you with all these children. Pray, God will change him. Not a damn truth.

    I am no doctor of psychology nor psychiatry, but I know this much, as I have witnesses it in my own home growing up after my mom finally build the courage to leave my dad; which I found out was not even married to my mom. The effects are long term when anyone is stripped of their power and beauty to be human. When a women is beaten and is encouraged to stay there in that home by the church or her family, her ability to accept her beauty, her self-worth, to be loving, and all the good things that make a woman a woman and the a mother to her children are flushed down the toilet. In this you have a broken person, trying to keep a family together. So how do you think the family growing up is really going to turn out in society and in their personal lives? Thank God for Grace and all the healing that comes with it to keep us all afloat!

    We overcome by the word of our testimony and by the blood of the lamb! I am an over-comer and use what I know everyday to help my mom and sisters, whom also have been victims of abuse by the men in their lives. It’s a long road to the healing and acceptance after such violence as been bestowed upon anyone who didn’t sign up for WWF! Speak out women! Walk out! And Like Madea said, fix them bitches a pot of hot grits before you go!

  34. I loved the article. I am the mother of two daughters and one son. My oldest daughter is married, my son has been in a long term relationship with a very nice young lady and last but not least, there is my 16 year old daughter. There have been days when I have had to catch myself to stop from ringing her neck. I know that the child said “I don’t want to talk to you right now.” NO. She said ” I DON’T WANT TO TALK TO YOU RIGHT NOW!!!!!”" I’ve heard the same sentiment. Numerous times. I did not choke, punch or beat her with a shoe. Why? Because my mother put the fear of God into me to the point where I finally found my voice at 35 years old. She was God to me and I was EXTREMELY frightened of my mother. I was so afraid of confrontation until I was literally a doormat. I don’t want this for my daughter. I don’t want her to be afraid to speak her mind, to have her voice heard. To be afraid of what MIGHT happen. Granted, the child may have been disrespectful, but if she called the police, this was not the first time that this has happened. This was the straw that broke the camels back. Some people can’t begin a sentence with first saying “Pastor said…………….” Pastor drives a Rolls Royce. You can’t pay your light bill. He is just a man who puts his pants on one leg at a time and is hiding behind the Creflo Dollar brand.

    • Thank you so much for your perspective Yellowtiger, because I’m right there with you! I think people tend to focus on the fact that you don’t have kids (I know you do, but I don’t) as reason enough for saying you can’t speak on how to treat them; however, if you can remember how you were treated when you were young, and can know for certain what you deserved and didn’t deserve, then I believe that can also be a powerful testament to the usefulness of one strategy or another. I had the same experience you did regarding my relationship with my mother, to the point that even now our relationship isn’t as great as it could’ve been had she chosen not to raise me the way she did. My father wasn’t in my life because he died before I was born; looking at some of these responses though, I’m almost glad to say he wasn’t there, because I didn’t have to worry about someone justifying him in any brutality he’d wish to bestow on me. Now of couse, that last statement is more hyperbole than anything else; however, I AM honestly thankful that I’ve never had to go through what this young lady and many others have had to experience at the hands of the one who’s supposed to be the first male leader in their lives.

  35. You expressed my thoughts on this situation more eloquently than I could have. Well done!

  36. Great work. Hope to meet you one day. Anyway you slice this it smells bad. True, we weren’t there. True, most fifteen year olds like to have their way, and all parties are important ones, particularly the end of the year ones. And many fathers running a multi-million dollar business (or who work at Walmart for that matter) will have short tempers, particularly with teenage girls–so much mystery there, especially when you’ve never been one. (Went through that twice). But how do you go from bad grades to the police being called to your house on a domestic? My question is this: how many grown men have called the police on Pastor Dollar? (Probably none, because they tend to hit back). What goes through a child’s mind when they have to call the cops to protect themselves from Dad? Why don’t parishioners understand that you can have a really big church, lots of money and success, and still have a control problem that needs attention? My hope is that they all get the healing that they need. I really need my grown daughters in my life because they bring me a lot of joy. Mr. Dollar will, too. For thing for sure: one of those Dollar daughters got the memo, that you don’t have to take that from anybody–even if they have your last name.

  37. Great article. You made a lot of good points. Generally, our society (not just the black community) do not respect children. What you said about taking on the dominant culture’s authoritarian style of raising children is THE key so many of the problems we face in society as a whole…humans, in our egalitarian past (and I’m talking thousands and thousands of years ago) did not treat our children with such violence. Perhaps it has been the demands of modern life since the agricultural and industrial revolutions, but we have to find a way back to back to it being the norm to treat our children and each other with equality and respect.

  38. As we all know ,only the people involved in this can speak the whole truth and nothing but the truth on this ,but surely if the police was called something serious had to take place in that house ,my mother famous saying is ,all who preach aren’t called ,some that are called don’t preach ,we must remember this is just a man after all and bounded by the same rules ,everyday we live,we fall down ,but we get up .

    • I reply to you but I direct this generally at all of the responses that suggest that only those involved know or can speak to the “truth.” The people involved and present are often times the least likely people to speak the “truth” of what occurred. The pastor will want to protect his reputation and the truth may not help that. The older daughter may be afraid of the truth, because it may hurt her father or hurt her sister. The abused daughter may be unwilling or unable to even recognize the whole truth as her judgment may be clouded with years of abuse boiling over, anger, resentment, remorse, fear and a whole host of other emotions that cloud and hinder her ability to give the unvarnished “truth.” The mother is conspicuously absent from the conversation and events and I wonder what version of “truth” she would offer if given the chance to speak.

      The reliance on the people in question to be the only ones to tell the truth..may not be a wise or safe bet. Abuse victims routinely lie, to themselves, to hospital workers, emt workers, etc. Abusers lie as well.

      Piecing together what really happened may very well have to be done outside of or with more than just the “truth” of those who were present.

  39. So…. how is the father abusive? I plead for education. All things constant , was he reported before for assaulting his daughter? And for the scholars on parenting, how should he have handled his daughter in that moment? You know we joke about the punishments we had as children, this Dollar case seems real familiar in that context. While we examine the black church regarding the father’s leadership, reconvene once more on parenting unruly children. What alternatives are there when you are ready to drop kick the child in the chest for pumping their own chest up and defying you. I have met some successful folks who did not experience physical punishment, but working here in Chicago , it is evident not enough of these same aged teens are being corrected. What I cant stand for is we coddle and say oh that is not right correct the child physically and offer talking to them. Rigghhhttt….. Again I ask how is it abuse? Have we come to be that desensitize? So Madea, Granny, Gran pop and others were brutal and cruel? What would be the difference now? If you say it is not necessary I got a beach house in Idaho for sale!

    • Necessary for what? Being obedient? I know so many people who are outwardly successful, but inside they carry enormous pain from their “tough love” upbringing. And nearly all of them have siblings who got the same beatings but are alcoholics, drug users or incarcerated. Yeah, beating the kids is the magic solution.

    • “So…. how is the father abusive? I plead for education.”

      Reading the article might help you out. I realize it can be hard for black churchy folk to understand this, but like, there’s never a reason to put your hands on another in violence. NEVER. I love my people, but I lived w/ that kind of foolishness as a child and teen and I want no part of it. It is abusive, warped and destroys spirits and souls.

      • All alleged.. Fair enough you have factual living..There are real cases of abuse and then there are not cases. So what we don’t apply any correction?? Again what is an alternative for the unruly child. They are not getting a pass. And you know while we are at it, if this daughter were an unruly son then what? Again what do you do? And again for Dollar’s case (not personally a fan of him) but has there been report of abuse? Are they any records with the school she attends? Before we go and say oh he is abusive, check records for just cause.

    • There are many different ways you can correct a child. A spanking when you are 3 years old may be acceptable if the parent cannot appropriately communicate to the child that they are doing something wrong. But when you can communicate with you son or daughter that’s what you should do. Parents are very used to not being questioned. They just want their children to do as their told but as the child grows, that relationship becomes more complex. The young adult starts wanting to make decisions on their own which may be contrary to their parents. Now if a teen who “thinks” they know what is right for them asks their parent to go to a party and that parent says no and the reason is “because I said so” well unsurprisingly your teen is going to think the parent is unfair because they don’t really have a reason for not wanting them to go out. I am the youngest of three girls. My father was very protective and very strict. There were many times where put his foot down and blatantly said no to my oldest sister which then became blanket rules for the rest of us. He wouldn’t say why because apparently explaining yourself to your child is considered weakness for some odd reason. Yet when I heard my mother and father talking things over some of these things made sense. How much easier would it have been to say, “listen, I know you want to go out with your friends and party and have fun, but i’m scared for you because you’re my daughter and I don’t want anything to happen to you. There are dangers in the world that I’m not prepared to let you deal with on your own” How much yelling could have been avoided if parents talked to their children. Sure they may be upset still but you have a better chance of them listening to you if they know you are listening to them.

      • AGREE WITH YOU 1000% Use your brain! Plus if you don’t explain they won’t know why its wrong and want to do it again and then the parents have to keep on having to repeat!

  40. Interesting. I am in no way defending anyone, but looking at basic common sense….if a 15 year old is “choked & punched” by a grown 50 year old man…you would know it; there would be more than an old scar. If a 50 year old grown man “wanted” to hurt a 15 year old little girl…she would be physically hurt. Period. When a 15 year old wants to leave the house to go to some party at 1 a.m. In the morning in the city of Atlanta….but can’t even drive…that raises a red flag. Just saying this article definitely ignores those vital points.

  41. Wow. I attended Creflo Dollars church once back in 2002; something seemed off about him, but I could never put my finger on it. Hearing about this doesn’t shock me, but I am so disappointed to hear he (possibly) is an abusive father. There’s no telling how long this has been going on and who else he might have hurt in his household. Thank you for bringing this information to light, as well as discussing the Reverends’ ego/power over the women in a black church home. We have got to do better and say something if something doesn’t seem right.

  42. Are you kidding, I bet all those who commented on this article do not know what occured in that house. The Bible is clear ”Spare the rod and spoil the child” I did not write that, neither did you. That is the way it is written in the Holy Book. Please don’t try to give any pretty interpretation to it. It is clear. I find it difficult to believe that the Pastor intended to hurt his daughter. This is what is wrong with our Society. One of the reasons why we have our people disproportionately represented in Jails across the country. What happened to the days when you don’t talk back to one’s parents?? Bringing up teenagers is quite difficult and I am not creating any excuses for the Pastor. He may have made mistakes. However, this is not a case of abuse like i see in most comments that I see here.

    • That’s funny. Blacks are the most religious demographic in the country. They’re the ones always braggin about beating their children and not doing “white people shit” like time out. Yet…look at all the blacks in prison, in gangs, the kids killing eachother over drugs….Seems to me like whooping isn’t working. The bible also says to kill those who work on the sabbath. You gonna do that too? Use your brain

    • When you beat someone with a shoe your exact INTENT is to hurt that person so as to send the message “if you do this again you will get hurt” so yes, by disciplining her he intended to hurt her.

    • The “rod” is a metaphor for discipline. Discipline is about teaching and training (from the root word disciple). All children need discipline. NO child needs to be beaten. Second point: black people are being incarcerated at higher rates in order to support the prison industrial complex. Prisons have been privitized. They are incentivized by keeping the prisons full. Don’t get it twisted. As adults we are supposed to be smarter than our children. Surely we can think of another way to discipline that does not have the lasting negative impact that corporeal punishment has. There is convincing scientific evidence that corporeal punishment DOES NOT WORK.

  43. I feel sorry for the black community. Look at African immigrants that come to our country. They come with nothing, but yet they put all their energy into making the best of the opportunity of being in America. They do not talk back at their parents, they do not call the cops on their parents, discipline is instilled from childhood, yet you do not see many of them in jails like we African Americans. Go to all the Ivy league schools in the nation and you find them very well represented. Yet they came from poor quality schools, that we in the west criticize and look down upon. When the Police see them, they see Black and not African or African American. So what are they doing right??

  44. All alleged.. Fair enough you have factual living..There are cases and then there are not cases. So what we don’t apply any correction?? Again what is an alternative for the unruly child. They are not getting a pass. And you know while we are at it, if this daughter were an unruly son then what? Again what do you do? And again for Dollar’s case (not personally a fan of him) but has there been report of abuse? Are they any records with the school she attends? Before we go and say oh he is abusive, check records for just cause.

    • Thoughtful parenting..that begins well before 1am during her 15th year. Parenting is not fast food, there is no quick fix dollar menu instant answer. But an answer to the “unruly child” begs the question in this situation. There is no evidence that this child was unruly. Not wanting to talk to your father is not unruly. Asking if you can go to a party the next night is not unruly.

      What is unruly is beating a 15 year old because you don’t like them telling you that they want a moment of not speaking to you. The fact that the behavior in question could be “viewed” as unruly is really the problem that a solution needs to uncovered for.

  45. I agree with the blogger almost entirely. One assertion, however, seemed gratuitous: “Why have we bought into the primary premise of white supremacy, that the most effective way to establish authority is through violence?” I would appreciate a clarification of this notion.

  46. First, I would like to say that the Church has not fail its women, only God and the family knows what happen. I say that this incident was a trick from the enemy to try to stop the man of God from preaching the truth about sin. Pastor Creflo have been preaching about sin that has corrupt the minds of our teenagers, and the devil is mad he can’t stop him, so he uses the closes thing to him his daughter, to try and get him off focus, but I bind that lying demon in the name of JESUS!!!

    • I’m really confused by what you are trying to say. I hope you are not saying that his daughter is doing the work of the devil for calling the cops on her father for abuse. . .

  47. The Bible is anti-female from the first page. The females I look up to in that ghastly tome are either marginalized or made to be seen as evil.

    I strongly dislike Creflo Dollar. He is but a pimp and opportunist. But I hope things like this help send a jolt through the hand of religion so that it can loosen its vice grip and quit paralyzing our people.

    • That is a lie. But clearly you do not understand and probably have not read. Pray and ask God for understanding with an ernest heart & he will answer no matter who u r or what you have done & ill pray for you 2.

      • A “lie” you say?

        “women should remain silent in churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission…”1 Corinthians 14:34
        “Man born of woman. Who can bring what is pure from the impure? No one!” Job 14:1-4
        If a woman gives birth to a girl she is unclean for twice as long.
        5:11-31 Fidelity test for women only.
        30:1-16 Woman’s vow invalid unless approved by her father or husband.
        31:17-18 Kill all except virgins. Keep virgins for yourselves.
        CH 12 Miriam punished for rebuking Moses.

        DEUTERONOMY
        20:14 Take women, livestock as plunder.
        22:13-21 Stone non-virgin bride.
        22:23-24 Stone rapist and rape victim.
        22:28 Rape victim must marry rapist; rape victim’s father compensated for depreciation of his property.

      • @Jasmine LuckyDragon Tirado if you read the 36th and 37th verses of I Corinthians chapter 14 you will find that the writer is in fact refuting those things.

        I Corinthians 14

        “34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

        35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

        36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?

        37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.”

        In the 36th verse it CLEARLY refutes women not being able to speak in church or learn from other besides their husbands at home. The writer is saying men did not create the word of God and that it was not meant only for them therefore they cannot control who learns it, where, how, and who speaks it. The writer then says anyone who claims to be a prophet should acknowledge that these are the commandments of God, once again nothing made up by man. So before you categorize the Bible as being against women, be sure to continue reading to the end.

  48. Reblogged this on Ace VS.In My Mind and commented:
    Good Read For Women.. Truth is that you have all the power to stop these thing by standing up and telling the truth. My question was why would a mother let this happen to a 15 year old girl. This isnt a beating on your butt when your 5 for not listening. This is a Brawl

  49. My bigger issue is how you call yourself a Christian with a straight face and cuss as much as you do. I am not defending nor supporting Creflo as I don’t know the facts. I do know the facts that no one claiming to follow Jesus should be using the language you do. This wasn’t some slip of a tongue, clearly that language is a part of your regular vocabulary. Take the plank out of your eye first….

    • I’m a Christian because being a Christian is based on what I believe and profess about Christ, not the kind of language I use. So I’m not going to apologize for cursing. Deal with it.

      • Watch your life and your doctrine….it isn’t just what you believe but how you live as well that makes you a Christian.

      • No. We do not become Christians by our works. We are Christians by our faith only. In any case, if you think the work I’ve done in the name of Christ here is discredited because I used cuss words, you are entitled to your opinion. I have to give an account to the Lord for what I say and do, not you. And that is between me and God. So like I said, I stand by my original post–cuss words and all. Peace.

    • James, have you ever said, “Darn”? How about “Dang”? “Gosh”? “Heck”? Maybe you have your own made-up expletives that you use? If you have, you are just as guilty of “cussing.” Take the plank out of YOUR eye.

      The things you consider “profanity” are only profane because our modern society believes they are, but the truth is that they are just words. They cause no harm and are not, in themselves, offensive. In 50 years time, our kids and grandkids will laugh to think that “shit” used to be a dirty word, but they’ll have some new dirty word to say in its place.

      Legalistic worry over how people talk is a terrible habit for a Christian to pick up, because it really is a huge plank preventing you from seeing so many more important things.

  50. Thank you so much for this piece. After seeing this, I am interested in writing for this blog in the future. I could not have said it better myself. I have felt the same way most of my life about reconciling my religious views with the feminist views I was born with. I say born with because my views were inherent and came about at a young age but were not nutured. If anything, I was told they were going to render me unlovable by men and was encouraged to just drop my “nonsense.” It’s great to know that I am not alone.

    I have been dismayed by the responses to this situation. Part of the psychosis is that because of the absence of so many fathers in the African American community, many feel that having a man in the home, even one who beats you, is better than not having a man at all.

    I know we all make mistakes but there seems to be no ownership or accountability going on in the Dollar home.

    • The daughter is a student who had done somewhat poorly in school and had not, apparently, improved her marks. Thus the restriction on her partying. That is fair, especially if she’d been warned earlier of the grounding consequences that would come her way. For her to be in a snit is a normal reaction, and should have been ignored. Let her cool off. There is time later for a discussion about it. For the purposes of IQ testing, adulthood is attained at the age of 16. If she can’t see common sense–that good grades are necessary, then perhaps a tutor or a stint of toting a cotton sack would be instructive. She was assaulted. She’s too old to spank and knocking anyone of any age to the ground, choking, etc. is an admission of failure of parenting duties aforehand. Yeah, maybe a man is needed in the household–a real man, not a bully and a moron.

  51. I wonder how you’d feel if you had made one of your many mistakes and someone blogged about it condemming you OR mabey you where getting one of those whippings from your mom and sum1 called the police because they felt it was abuse? I mean we could just as easily converse about that + that would be alot more interesting because of that you have 1st hand knowledge? I dnt really watch dollar much, not my cup, but I can tell you I know better then to put all my trust in man, because no one is perfect but God! Because we all are sinners no exemptions. We’re ALL evil doers in his eyes, but he loves us just the same. WHY? Because we were forgiven. So if he could have mercy on us for our wrong doings, why cant we do the same for each other? Well that’s not really a queston but more of an requirement which brings me to your understanding of the word. You’ve stated you’ve read and have a deep understanding it, but did you skip the part about judging and forgiveness and mercy? I mean its kinda 1 of the main ideas… wouldnt you agree? I hope so & let me help you, its not wise to skip pick and choose in the word of God because the enemy will use that to take you down & out without you even realizing #TRUTH. But a bigger issue for me (and let me tell you it bothers me terrible) is when people judge others in the name of the Lord feeling they know him well enough to speak on his behalf 2 condemm others because of their decisions (right or wrong) even condemming them for forgiving another. Question, do u claim to know what God is doing in every situation?. Please know that he does not require you to understand but he does require you to Obey. Im really disturbed and even dissapointed with the of people comming out with these “theologies” in the name of the lord. Stirring the pot, mis-leading your brothers and sisters, creating division because that is exactly what this is. They enemy is using you all the while ur thinking you’ve came in the name of Jesus! Let me tell you satan is not kind he will definitely trick u into believing you are on the right side of the lord. He’ll he do it, please understand thats is his sole mission to steal kill and destroy in anyway he can by any means nesseccary even if it means coming in the name of the lord. So please read and pray and ask God for understanding, and don’t b so quick to feel like you’ve got it all figured out because only God knows and understands all. Be humble and kind to your brothers and sisters these are not suggestions they are requirements. And note, that in the same way you judge dollar God will judge you!!! & thats all in his word and I worn you not to distort it. The word of God IS NOT a theology, it is the truth and the light. It has already been prepared for you no need for seasoning because IT is perfect. And @ some point you will need to put all your trust in God, that he knows what is best & has everthing under his control and trust also that he will not let you go without knowing the true word no matter what the enemy has done to keep you in the dark. God has ALL power the enemy is no match for him. You dnt have to worry.

    • Girl, please. What are you talking about?

      a.) I don’t have a heaven or hell to put Creflo in, so I most certainly did not condemn him.
      b.) Since you want to talk about picking and choosing scriptures, what do you with the verse in John 7:24 that says, “Judge ye with righteous judgement.” WE make judgments everyday. But we are to do so in a loving and gracious manner.
      c.) What do you with the verse where Jesus says, “Any many who causes a child to sin should put a millstone about his neck and cast himself into the sea.” When it came to people mistreating children, Jesus himself took no prisoners. Matt 18:6
      d.) The Word says, “in all thy getting get understanding.” I’m not practicing blind obedience.
      e.) If you think I’m being used of the enemy, feel free to studiously avoid my counsel.
      f.) I don’t have it all figured out, but I have lived long enough to know that a man beating up on a woman is wrong.
      g.) Your post is full assumptions about my prayer life and my relationship with God. And ALL your assumptions are wrong.

      So trust and believe that I’m not worried. Peace.

      • (Mat 18:1) At that hour the disciples came to Jesus, saying, Who is the greater in the kingdom of Heaven?(Mat 18:2) And Jesus called a little child to Him and set him in their midst,(Mat 18:3) and said, Truly I say to you, Unless you are converted and become as little children, you shall not enter into the kingdom of Heaven.
        (Mat 18:4) Therefore whoever shall humble himself like this little child, this one is the greater in the kingdom of Heaven.
        (Mat 18:5) And whoever shall receive one such little child in My name receives Me.(Mat 18:6) But whoever shall offend one of these little ones who believes in Me, it would be better for him that an ass’s millstone were hung around his neck, and he be sunk in the depth of the sea. Here Jesus is speaking of child like Faith exhibited by those who would become converted as well as warning those following him that they should not hinder children who believed in him.

        I think these scriptures when used in context address all angles of the Creflo $ situation.(Eph 6:1) Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right.(Eph 6:2) Honor your father and mother (which is the first commandment with a promise),(Eph 6:3) so that it may be well with you, and that you may live long on the earth.
        (Eph 6:4) And fathers, do not provoke your children to wrath, but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

      • Yes. And you will note that I cited and quoted Ephesians 6:1-4 in the original post. Peace.

    • Want to know the last time I heard something like this used to defend a clergyman accused of abuse? The Catholic church. Was “don’t judge” your reaction when some old white guy was in the hot seat and a bunch of white folks were putting the good of their hierarchy before the good of their children?

      Also not totally clear where you come off lecturing anyone on being “on the right side of the lord,” when I don’t imagine you can claim to know what God is doing in every situation either.

      P.S. – God’s law is not man’s law. I’m pretty sure I read that idea somewhere. God forgives, but doesn’t shield you from any consequence but going to Hell.

  52. I’ve been saying this my whole life! Thanks for putting it much more eloquently than i probably. do. Glad there are people like you out there speaking up. Wish there more. Christiantiy is the biggest challenger of the basic fundamentals of common sense (especially if you are American black) but our people lap it up as if it was the fountain of youth. Wake up my people, you are being conned!!

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  54. I really think that none of you have read that heinous book from cover to cover. I think you let the preacher jump around from verse to verse, skipping over the EVIL in that book. You know its the religion of the slave master right?
    History as shown that the religion and culture of the Jew, Christian, and Muslim is one of violence and genocide. Both of which are condoned by God.

    Who tells the first lie, and thus commits the first original sin. YHWH.
    Whose name means Jealousy? YHWH( thats a sin for all those who don’t read more than what they are told)

    The ” heresy” of all the great heretical sects is that YHWH is actually the Devil. Which would make sense sense the devil was cast down from the heavens.

    I guess what i am getting at is that lying, violence, and hypocritical actions and words are what I, and anyone who thinks and acts clearly expect from the followers of Abraham’s God.

  55. Stop getting played by the enemy, getting yourself all wrapped up in black history, african and idian decent, feminist vs. white suppreamacy, that is a trick and a ploy to get your focus. Concern yourself with the word of God thats all you need everything else is a trick. DON’T BE FOOLED!!! your knowledge of history wont changing anything make a difference in were you & your family spend eternity. Be responsible for yourself and, but help your people with prayer and my living and spreading the word of God. Not by confusing us. That is more damaging to African Americans then anything the white man did. STOP SPREADING LIES IN YOUR COMMUNITY!!! You are committing a great crime against your brothers and sisters!!!!

    • Lol. Well please by all means feel free to stop reading my lies. Come on. Stop it right now!

  56. When will we believe our daughters? How many years have our daughters tried to stand up for themselves about so many things that make us feel uncomfortable and instead we beat them down and treat them like roped cattle? When will we stand up for our daughters? When will we believe our daughters over our shame or our pride? ? When will we defend our daughters? When will we hold the father accountable for his hands around her throat while his $500 dollar shoe hammers against her thigh? When we stop asking for evidence when the evidence is already there? When will somebody comment on what the daughter was doing when he charged her? When will somebody say, Hey, wait a minute, the daughter was in the other room crying…? The daughter was crying out her disappointment. Does disappointment deserve hands around the throat? Does disappointment deserve a paddling by a shoe? Does disappointment deserve being thrown down on the floor like roped cattle? When will we stop standing up for hoodlums who wear the holy cloth? When will we start embracing the courage of anyone to walk out of church when our soul tells us to walk out? What is wrong with us that we are quicker to call on dutiful obedience from the child than dutiful love from the father named for his almighty dollar? When will we look into the mirror and believe our daughters? When will we look into the camera and believe our daughters? When will we believe our daughters? When will we stop protecting the liar beneath the light of the cross? How many hundreds of years have to pass before we lean into the truths that our 15 and 19 year-old daughters are speaking to us as loud as any gospel? Thank the angels for the 19 year-old sister who was her sister’s witness. Thank the angels. When? When will we thank her for telling the truth. When will we embrace our daughters for standing up for their lives? Somebody please tell me when? When will we believe that their sanity and their lives matter?

  57. The enemy is easy to spot. He is alway speaking and acting against the word of God. He tries to turn you away from him & twords the dark, claiming he has read the word and it does not pertain to the issues of today. Its out-dated he says & + plus its anti female & we all love women so why believe in a God who hates women. History has shown and the statistics clearly states he says, and all christians are hypocrites, look @ what those pastors in those cities did. Don’t be tricked the devil is a liar. He claims the word is wrong but then speaks from it. He is easy to spot. You will always find him speaking against the word. But don’t live in condemnation with him because his future is dark & ghastly. Be blessed and highly favored be worry free and powerful and loved. Have a great friend in jesus Choose a bright future. You have alot to gain with the lord God on your side.

  58. I think the insinuation that Black women are getting their behinds kicked in their own homes makes the point. This was a child who only had to accept what her father said. It wasn’t her home. It was her father’s home. No, a child isn’t property to beat into submission but I for one believe this could have been a situation where she tried his patience. I can imagine a father who has been investigated for his lavish lifestyle might be indulgent of his children. That doesn’t mean he can’t be physically or otherwise abusive–but I believe you have created a mashup of issues that while valid in themselves do not necessarily validate one another.

    I have a 15-year-old daughter and I WAS abused by my father from the age of 5 regardless of all the overachieving and all the pleasing I tried to do, he was mean–and often unforgiving and I was his favorite! As an abused child, I would not have asked my father to go to a party. I would not have cried openly after being told I could not do something and I would not have told my father I did not want to talk to him. Talking back just isn’t symptomatic of an abused child. Maybe he did lose his cool and I’m not waving any pom-poms for that. I do believe this post has taken the ball and run with it. The Black Church fails its women when it fails its sons. The fact that we lose young boys in adolescence due to archaic youth ministries is a failing. The fact that teen and single mothers are black sheep is a failing. The fact that the epitome of womanhood is becoming a wife and mother is a failing. But a father who for all I know has been in the household rearing and caring for his wife and children is not a failing, even if he is imperfect.

    I do not spank, hit or punch my child. But God knows I’ve come close to knocking her out once or twice b/c the eyes roll and she chooses to do do things in her own time. And if she raised her hand to me God only knows which one of us would be on the news.

    • All right, there’s being imperfect and there’s being a criminal. What is alleged here is a pretty obvious criminal act, not just a routine spanking. I may not have been there to say it was, but I sure as hell wasn’t there to say it was just another teenager stepping out of line. Just like I don’t know Dollar is a monster, I don’t know this was some brat teenager being a brat.

      I sure think a 15-year-old girl deserves to be heard, because you know what? She was there. For that very reason, what she has to say needs its fair hearing. And her 19-year-old sister isn’t just some kid acting out, no matter what her sister was. She’s an adult. A grown woman who is being told by her community that her word doesn’t mean squat.

      How are these young women ever going to think they can speak out against a white man if their own people think their word is worth so little they aren’t even willing to hear it? How is any young black person ever going to learn that their word needs to mean something if they see that it flat-out doesn’t when there’s a powerful man to defend?

      That’s what this post says at its core, y’all. The black church of all places needs to be a place where a black person’s word and experience doesn’t take a backseat to power, convenience and the status quo. Because it sure as hell does everywhere else. I’m not saying you write Dollar a jail sentence without a trial. I’m saying you don’t hand him a get-of-jail-free pass either.

      You think our young people don’t know respect? Well I sure don’t see anyone teaching them what it looks like in this situation. You live in a world where no one respects you, even the folks that should, and there’s no way you learn to respect anyone else, including yourself.

    • I’m with you on this one. Folks are blasting this waaaayyyy out of proportion because it’s Creflo. I’ve raised a teenage daughter by myself. Did that child try my patience? Is the Pope catholic??? I love that child (now an adult) with all my heart…it was thru the grace of God, and only the grace of God, that when I did lose my temper I didn’t knock her little block off…But what I REALLY want to say is: Where is Taffi (Creflo’s wife)? I dont hear anybody saying what Taffi’s response SHOULD have been when this was happening. If we are going to beat up in Creflo, then we should beat up on both parents. What did she do to protect her child IF her child needed protecting?

  59. When will we stop worrying what the white man will think of us? When will we realize that us NOT being willing to tell the truth about what happens in our community is more devastating than any thing the white man thinks of us? When will we take our gaze off the white man’s report on who we are and put our gaze on our daughters and sons and how they are reflections of who we are?

  60. Let me preface this by saying, I’ve never been a fan of Creflo. I really don’t understand why a man would want to change his name to Dollar, just seems a bit ridiculous. But I digress…It really bothers me that we as a people are conditioned to make excuses for domestic violence. It honestly perpetuates victims blaming themselves. I enjoyed reading this blog. However, as a parent, there are some points that don’t jive with me. I think it reads as though there is not distinction between spanking a child and abusing a child, and there is a HUGE difference. I think this may have caused a knee jerk reaction in some parents. My discipline techniques are varied, and they start with modeling the type of behavior that I want my child to display. They also (rarely) include spankings, and I’m ok with that. I do not condone abuse. I think most people know that parenting teens is hard work, but that’s why it’s important to make an impression on your children early on, because violence at that point is probably not going to make a child be anything different than what you have already raised them to be (purposefully or not). I similar discussions continue to happen, and that we all can be more mindful and purposeful with how we raise our kids. Enough of us are broken and carrying wounds from childhood and life; we shouldn’t be the ones to pass that on to our kids.

    • Hey Ty!

      We can agree that spanking and abuse shouldn’t necessarily be conflated. But in some ways, I am asking us to think about the real goal of spanking. I was spanked until 8 or 9, but very rarely, and at some point, once I reached the age of reason, it just didn’t make sense anymore. I understand popping the hands of a small child to keep them from immediate danger, or to express displeasure, and I’ve spanked my own nephews before. But I suspect that if parents are intentional and thoughtful, they’ll turn to spanking far less than they do.

      That being said, I’m also talking about age appropriate forms of discipline. Teens aren’t “spanked.” They are beaten. And any parents who really believe that they are meting out whoopings to their 15 and 16 years olds are kidding themselves.

  61. There is a right and a wrong way discipline a child and maybe or maybe not Pastor Dollar handled it the wrong way. The Bible speaks about discipline your children. I have a 21 yr old son and 17 yr old daughter. What worked with him had no effect on her. Girls tend to have more mouth. I wasn’t there at the home but I know how teenager can be. It not what they say it’s how they say it that can make a parent snatch a knot in them. I love my kids but I will not go to jail because of them. I attend his church in the 90′s when his 3 daughters were elementary age kids. He express so much love toward all 3. I truly believe he loves his daughters and he’s a wonderful father to all of them. No one is perfect. I don’t believe he punched or choked his daughter even though the 19 year said he did. Children will say ugly stuff about there parents when they don”t get there way. Trust me I know and it hurts really bad. It a pain that can not be explain. God is in Control and if they take this and learn from it God will get the glory. I will pray for this Family.

    Prov 13:24: “He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes (diligently).”
    Prov 19:18: “Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying.”
    Prov 22:15: “Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.”
    Prov 23:13: “Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.”
    Prov 23:14: “Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell (Shoel).”
    Prov 29:15: “The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame.”

  62. Pingback: Making The Best Of Any Situation « Transient Reflections

  63. First and foremost,Dr.Dollar should not be judged by the world,this incident should not have been publicly spoken,this is a in-house matter,this will not be correctly judged,for the simple fact you are dealing with non-believers,and they will be accusers of the brother,i’m not approving of his methods,i don’t condone to striking a woman ,talking is sending a better message of communication ,with soft loving words,that is what are black women need a word of love and protection promoting womanhood from are black men,our women don’t trust us as it is,why?Time to change this gentleman now! Treat them like the Mother of the earth that they were meant to be,or we will be in dire straits! Let’s stop Domestic
    Violence it’a a mess!

    • So, C.Hassell you’re saying that because I’m a nonbeliever, I am not able to recognize abuse? I was raised in a household where fear and violence were used in an attempt to break my sister and my spirits. I think this uniquely qualifies me to recognize abuse. An adult male has NO BUSINESS EVER putting his hands on a teenaged female. There is never a reason or excuse for a father to perpetrate such violence on his own child. To give Mr. Dollar a free pass in this situation is tantamount to blaming the rape victim for their own rape!

  64. Crunktastic, let me recommend to you a fascinating book by cognitive scientist Steven Pinker, called “The Better Angels of Our Nature.” It deals with two major points— the first is that historians agree that people are far less violent to each other today than at any point in human history. This might seem counterintuitive, but it really isn’t. Even with this case— what Mr Dollar is alleged to have done would not have even gotten him arrested even a generation ago: It would have been a “family affair” and nobody’s business, until someone gets killed. Whippings, beatings, switchings, these were all standard disciplining techniques until recently.

    This decline in violence is not just in the home— it’s on the streets, and even in wars, which are very rare compared to even a century ago. War crimes are even rarer now… back in the day, rape, pillage, and civilian massacre were normal and even praised among soldiers as a sign of virility and their right as victors.

    Like I said, the doom-and-gloom chicken littles say that times are worse, so Dr Pinker spends half the book laying out the case that in reality, we live in the safest time in human history (on the average, of course).

    The second part of this book looks at how our moral values have changed over time, no matter what our religion is. Clearly, as you point out, our moral values have changed since Biblical times, and we have a tendency to focus on parts of the Good Book that fit our values, while ignoring or writing off those where we’ve moved on.

    Perhaps the most obvious example along these lines is the abolition of slavery— Christians led the fight for abolition… but Christians also fought to preserve it, and each side had its Bible verses to support it. No matter; nowadays slavery is so wrong it doesn’t even occur to most of us to enslave someone, and it’s written off as a product of Biblical times.

    This kind of moral change goes on in all sorts of domains, even with whether it’s right for a father to beat his children, or more generally, for the father to be the lord of the family. It’s a sign of progress that Mr Dollar has to deny having beaten his children; in the past the police wouldn’t have bothered.

    In any case, this book presents a fascinating argument, anchored in simple reality. It’s written for the public, not for academics, so it’s fun to read while still being very illuminating and thought-provoking. Obviously, some of the commenters here won’t want their thoughts provoked, but many of you would, so I recommend this book to you.

  65. I noticed a few Ad Hominem fallacies directed towards Mr. Dollar but I’ll leave that alone for now. No one knows but the 3 people involved I will agree but we as a community have used violence as a discipline tool too often without thinking of the long term consequence. Of course people are going to back anyone that financially well off regardless of guilt, especially in the patriarchy of the black church where the people in power can do no wrong. We as a people have to move away from religion and live our life our own way. This nonsense of trying to emulate a demi god in exchange for some proposed meta physical reward is sad and pathetic. We have demonized each other (more so women imo) because of this. Let go of religion. There is no god.

  66. (Deep Breathe) Dr. Dollar stood flat footed in front of his congregation and responded to the allegations. He did not run he confronted it head on. First of all the daughter in question was not there and she was not seated next to her mother. (You either need Glasses or you are Liar, I think the latter) You were looking at the wrong tape. I don’t condone violence against women and children but I do believe children should be disciplined. None of us were there. So a police report is okay when its against the bad Pastor you dont like but its an issue in the Trayvon Martin case right? I realize that this is an attempt to support your delusional Feminist ideology but this is by far one of the stupidest things I have ever read designed for dramatic effect to enrage black women about the injustices in the black church. Give me a break. “In classic fashion” So because you have a problem with the Man’s theology he can’t be taken at his word? If he was a liberal Christian Pastor who preached that being Gay was cool and the Devil is myth you would be cool. This is some contrived black feminist junk. Pastor Dollar is and has been an adovocate in his church for women and has used his pulpit and resources to combat the sexual exploitation of women and girls in Atlanta. Something I would think you feminists would applaud. http://www.taffidollar.org/Prestige.aspx There are also women at his church in positions of leadership. Last I checked they were not oppressed or scared into silence by the black male Pastors who belive the fairy tale bible.

    There was already an anti-Creflo Dollar sentiment before this happend. (The mans real name is Dollar by the way) Lies about the mans ministry and his theology are all over the internet. Hes not a thief and hes not a liar. He is a man of God and a man of integrity who has done more for that community than most people realize but my issue with blogs,pundits and intellectuals especially black ones is that they spout liberal nonsensical rhetoric and try to pass it off as fact. I dont know what Black church you are talking about but I grew up in one where my Great Aunt was head Pastor and she was not a victim. Can we take a man at this word that a family situation got out of hand? We act like that never happened to any of us. I am really annoyed with this fake black women’s outrage or should I say selective outrage cause this liberal junk is only peddled to people who believe it hook line and sinker. There are many men who go to church every Sunday. These stupid stats that are peddled are ridiculous. Black people are not monolithic. Liberals want you to belive that. Our thoughts and churches are different. The Black church has many branches that believe different interpretations of the Bible. Some more traditional. Some are not.

    Yes I believe in traditional marriage. Yes I believe that men and women are equal but they are not the same. If Black men assumed the leadership roles as fathers and husbands in our communities we would not face the crap we face. I dont support Gay marriage and oh yeah I believe the BIble and Christianity which is not some Eurocentric dogma imposed on me. Tell that to the Ethiopian Coptic Church or the Kingdom of Axum in Ancient Africa. I really get annoyed with this mess. So annoyed that I am done with social networking forever. Your article is weak feminist trash. The erosion of the black family and the destruction of our communities is not becuase of violence drugs or prisons but its ideologies that want to strip away the traditional family and replace it with something that is not sustainable. Im sorry I read this foolishness. We are seeing a fatherless broken generation plauged by the liberal victimology. Our communities need Fathers to step up. It will begin and end when Men respond as men. Not men who beat and oppress women that is not what I am saying but men who love their wives and provide for their children in traditional families. Thats it. You can love it or hate it. We get a concerned father and we want to beat him down and oh yeah hes a Christian Minister who is diametrically opposed to my liberal feminist crap so Im going to write a hit piece to enrage other delusional sisters. The man owned up to what happend. All of this is anger because many of yall are afraid he may have been telling the truth. One less victim for you all to exploit. Feminism is a joke. Its nonsense. Its designed to destroy the family. Days like this I regret I ever majored in African-American Studies.

    • I guess the deep breath didn’t do you any good, because your arguments are being watered down by your own illogic.

      Anyway, I didn’t say anything about Dollar’s ministry, because that is not the issue here. Seriously go back into the piece and quote me even one line where I say ANYTHING about World Changers, the Prosperity gospel, etc. Find it.

      The issue here is the conflict with his daughter and his responses to it. Second, I believe the police report, because unlike Trayvon Martin, the statements of Creflo’s own two daughters are recorded in it.

      Oh and for the record: we don’t defend feminism on this blog. We don’t have, too. Ignorant statements from brothers like you give us all the justification we need to be feminists. If you don’t like it, don’t read it!

      And I wish you had majored in African American Studies and taken a class with me –oh yeah, why? Because…ding, ding, ding. I’m a professor of African American Studies (and Women’s Studies.) Check yourself and your ignorant rant at the door. You haven’t read enough to step to me. Clearly. So back back.

      • It’s unfortunate that you are allowing a good spirited debate to spiral way out of control. I understand your right to defend yourself but you weaken your own argument by mud slinging and telling people to go elsewhere if they don’t like what you write. I gave a response earlier that no one ever responded to. Let’s be better with each other. Debate the issues for purposes of finding solutions. Not to shoot other down, go off on tangents about liberalism, and the like. I think you are a thoughtful and passionate writer but you may do more damage to your writing if you lower yourself O spurious arguments, mud slinging, and encourage others to jet off your page. Let’s be better, lets do better.
        Respectfully,

      • So Im ignorant because I believe what I believe. I have a strong difference of opinion that tends to evoke the kind of reaction you just gave me. Im used to it. When you are conservative Black and Christian you tend to get treated like a pariah sellout. So its cool. I just think for myself and thats a problem for a lot of people especially my own. I get tired of people like you and your ilk framing these baseless ridiculous arguments every time something happens involving black women and you dive into an abyss of untruth to fish for things that are not there. You need another victim to exploit. Did it ever occur to anyone that this was a family argument that got out of hand? The man did not hide behind PR. He did not give vague statements. He was clear. Oh wait hes an oppressive patriarchal black preacher who hates women. You all want a victim to exploit and write about. You want to create some deep piece about kitchen floors and black girl fear and black man rage blah blah blah.

        You want to be relevant in the annals of black intellectual thought and like 99 percent of it you are grasping at straws and theories that are not there. Its foolishness. You can call me ignorant all day. I am not coming off where I stand. You and your ilk want to exploit this so you can have your Alice Walker Toni Cade Bambara moment in the sun. Family arguments and discipline are sometimes just that. There is no patriarchal monster oppressing and terrifying Black women. I reject your argument and we can agree to disagree. The man openly admitted he loved his children and owned up to what happend. I respect that. I respect a father who is trying to protect his family. God knows that there are few who do. I have read enough and written enough to know that in the years since African-American studies was created it has created a scholarship based on liberal victimology and we despise and malign anyone who disagrees with that. Dont worry about responding I wont be back to read it. You are really mad cause this may be a cause you cant exploit or manipulate and malign. This isnt a Precious or For Colored Girls moment for you so it makes you angry. Patriarchal Oppressive Black Preacher terrifies daughter with that Evil Bible. Thought you had something.

    • Jack i applaud your replies! Clearly you are not ignorant. However, the author in a sense is very close to being ignorant. Clearly the author feels that her view and opinion is the only one that matters. Its her story she wrote so her opinion really is the only one that matters to her. If the author isnt able to understand and respect others opinions and thought then possible she needs to keep them to herself..i guess that is just to novel of an idea thought…

    • Alone, the fact that his daughter picked up the phone to call the police on her father, says a lot about his household. Whether the allegations are true or false, this home is broken. A man with a home this broken, certainly has no room to counsel me on how to run my household, or lead me in a church. I have been the recipient of corporal punishment from both my parents, and never once did I feel the need to call the police and have my parents thrown in jail. I was never physically disciplined as a teenager, because by that point, I had been raised to a proper young lady. Think about that for a moment. If your children can watch you be handcuffed and carried to jail in the public eye, over false allegations, you have done something wrong as a parent. If you beat your child to the point that they felt the need to call the police, knowing the ramifications it would have on their family, then you have also done something wrong. So, you see, either way, Mr. Dollar has a lot of work to do in his own house, before he can be a true and effective leader of a church.

  67. This post is so thoughtful and powerful. A friend sent me the link and I am so glad that he did. Thank you for sharing your wise words.

  68. Thanks for posting the official police report with charges, and description of incident involving Mr. Dollar. Pastors are supposed to be pillars of the religious community. I have a daughter who is 37 years old. I have never chastised her with my hands. Dollar you are wrong! One day you will bow down before your follower’s and ask their forgiveness for such a brutal attack on your daughter.

  69. The only reason why people are coming to Creflo Dollar’s defense is because he’s a mega church pastor. If Creflo Dollar was your average Joe no on would care. All you have to do is say “I love Jesus” and black people will have your back. I’m a Christian and I’m not going to support someone blindly because they lead a church. Good post.

  70. I think all of the comments as well as the article are all about personal opinions. It doesn’t show respect for your fellow human to attack them because they do or don’t believe in physical discipline either. Whether he had a bad parenting moment or it was abject abuse we actually DON’T know. It’s good to get these conversations started but the same compassion shown these girls should be extended to your fellow commenters

  71. I have received a lot of negative feedback for voicing these same thoughts. Thank you for this piece!

  72. I am a black male who received whooping from both my father and mother when I was between the ages of 3 and 12. Now if my parents had waited to discipline me in that fashion at say 13 or 14 I might have ignored their discipline and become a terror. I agree that he went too far with his discipline but disobedience by a child who should know better is not right either.

  73. How can anyone, ANYONE, think it is okay for a man the size and as powerful as Creflo Dollar is to choke, and beat with a shoe, a fifteen year old girl? No man owns his children and he has no right to attack them and beat them. PERIOD. She sassed him and was crying and his response was to ATTACK her. Both she AND HER SISTER, told the same story. Come on, people use your heads. This was violence, pure and simple. Parental frustration is no excuse. This act was not the act of a man of God. On this score, Rev. Dollar failed. The best course to right this is for him to admit what happened, ask his daughter for forgiveness and talk to his congregation about the prevalence of violence in our society and how destructive it is. He’s more concerned about protecting HIS reputation at the cost of his daughter’s, by claiming to be entirely right.

  74. Pingback: The War Between Black Women and White Women | Interrace Today

  75. So well said!! This was very interesting and it is very informative. I also believe that spare the rod spoil the child is used very loosely and is to ignorance that allow individuals to form reasons and truths around it. God is of wisdom, when we start to form our own interpretations of his truths, we start to lean on our own understanding.

  76. If I hear kids these days one more time I am gonna yell!!!Please tell me why we have STEREOTYPED!!! All of the chidren together as a whole everytime a child becomes rebellious they are boxed into being a juvinile deliquent that’s not fair nor is it accurate!!! Black folks ( I have said this 50 million times) have a slave mentality for hitting and beating not using their God given brain to dicipline their children. Also I see alot of people going my mom and my dad whooped me with an extention cord I mean is that remotely normal HELL NO!!! It sounds like you are being beaten like a slave!!! Also just becuase your parents did it to you does not make it right YES IAM TALKING ABOUT YO MAMA SHE WAS A CHILD ABUSER IF SHE DID ANYTHING LIKE…Throw things at you, beat you with extention cords, broom handle, switch not sorry about how I feel we as Black folks need to realize that beating someone is demeaning and also if you find yourself not getting any where with the beatings hey here is a novel Idea its NOT WORKING!!! OUR KIDS ARE MORE VIOLENT THEN EVER HELLO VIOLENCE BEGETS VIOLENCE!!!!

  77. Amazing…thank you. I have never read anything this mindful about the black church from a professed christian. Bravo. I share a lot of your views. I’ve only read some of the comments. Honestly I think I stopped to comment because I was afraid of running into some ignorant statement that made it obvious that the person commenting only read just enough of the entry to realize that you did not agree with their ideals and have enough fuel to verbal assault you in the name of Jesus. You are a brave soul.
    A christian feminist, bravo!!!

  78. I have shared this on my FB and want to thank you for being brave enough to post. I like Creflo Dollar and have listened to him preach and believe God spoke to me through him but that doesn’t mean I have to be blind to the unjust and ungodly behavior…which he is accused of committing. Of course I agree that I, and other commentators don’t know all the facts, but that doesn’t mean I can voice my opinion on the subject. We didn’t know all the facts about the shooting death of Trayvon Martin but most would agree he was murdered. How can so many in our community be outraged in that instance, yet now posture on the defense? Just as the “Stand your ground ” defense is inapplicable to the Martin Murder , the “right to discipline your child” doesn’t work here. While I believe you have the right to defend your life when threatened, I don’t believe you have the right to provoke, escalate, or otherwise manufacture the threat and then claim the necessity of having to defend your life.

    You cannot physically discipline a 15 year child, I know I have had two of them. That is why you put them on restriction, take away privileges, or call the police!!!. Though many families feel justified in corporal punishment as a function of their experience, culture or religion—it all stems from a severe case of oppressive ignorance (but I don’t want to digress to a discussion of the indoctrination of overseer envy and the perpetuation of slave trade violence ).

    I don’t know all the facts but I do know that the fruit of the spirit is love, joy peace, goodness, kindness…and SELF-CONTROL! I know that my three teenagers push my buttons as all teenagers do but physical violence is not the solution…and that is what should be the take away from this news. The justice system will decide the facts, merits and disposition of the Dollar case and God will deal with Pastor Dollar like he deals with all of us. But we as Christians are at a theological crossroads and we can continue down a path of traditional ignorance living an oppressed unjust and ungodly existence or we can can chose the progressive path and live a more liberating and divine life :)

  79. Thank you for this. It goes beyond a black family thing…but men in general who commit the sin of idolatry and believe that they are above God’s law and use brute force and/or influence where it is unnecessary.

  80. If the police had to be called things went to far. And there is nothing wrong with Creflo apologizing for the escalation that took place in his home. And just leave it there. He is human and in a position of power whether he is an exploit or a man of God he should humble himself if he made a mistake…whether he humbles himself or not, life has a way of doing it for you regardless of your financial status or church population.

  81. whoever wrote this need their head check…. You don’t live there, nor do you have all the facts.Just wait until you have a teenager then come back and give your testimony…. you’re new school where kids can talk back and disrespect their parents. I’m not from that school I graduate long before this period. I didn’t play it then, and I sure don’t play it now. I will be respected in my own home.

  82. My granny told me a long time ago, “Whatever done in the dark must come to light.” Pastor Creflo is spiritual leader who oversees his flock. Pastor is also human who has issues like US regular people. I think this situation was a wake up call for all spiritual and christian leader and followers. We are not limited to human error and flaws. We all must continue to ask for God mercy and grace. Also, we need God to help us daily on our shortcomings. Because guess what we all have them. That being said; just because we are leaders we must not forget that God knows the REAL me and you. Leaders, God is only asking you men and women of God, to be honest with your flock and true to his word. When those things are overlooked; God has to uncover the truth.

  83. You write all this to say what? You feel you are in a better position to raise and or discipline his children. You are the one to judge him. You had to walk out of Service because you dont agree with what your pastor supports. Because in your mind, in your opinion you are right and they are wrong. How he and his wife discipline their children in their house is their business. If she was disrespectful of her parent/s and that is how he handled it then so be it. He didnt abuse her nor do i believe he ever has. But whatever its clear in your mindyou are right and they/he is wrong and anyone who doesnt feel/believe the same as you….

    • Yes, yes. What is the point of holding opinion if I think it’s the wrong one? Who holds opinions that they think are wrong? That is illogical. Of course, I think my opinion is right, but it’s backed up by the evidence from this incident (the police report), years of study on women’s issues, and my own personal relationship with Christ. In other words, it’s an informed opinion. If it doesn’t work for you, that’s cool. The good thing about being confident in one’s own opinions is that you don’t trip when other folks don’t think like you.

      So I ain’t trippin. Peace.

    • I think the author thinking is why do we, the public, automatically find excuses or reasons why the male in this situation could have been justified in his response (whatever that was) as opposed to saying he might have been wrong.

      I think the other issue that the author doesn’t agree with is that the daughter is automatically discredited because of her position to her father. When people say it’s a “family matter” or it’s “their business” it opens opens doors to much nefarious actions. How much does a person, woman, child have to be abused before it’s not just their business. Should the daughter have waited until she had a black eye or a significant bruise and for someone else to report it? This isn’t to say the Mr. Dollar beat her black and blue I don’t know. My question to you is when is it not “their business.” Or should matters of abuse always be hidden/dealt with internally?

  84. Demetrius, honestly I’m shocked that you seem to concur with this supposed “articulate rebuttal”… It is merely feminist ridden rhetoric… Its a shameless ranting for her opportunistic platform – feminism – this situation is not about that… Its about extreme measures of discipline when teens get rebellious…Countless children have lied on their parents to disguise even trivialize their own responsibility in a dilemma…Even the layperson untrained in criminal psychology and family dynamics can see that logically there are some missing “links” in the police report… It’s doubtful that Creflo went from 0 to 60 in seconds merely because she didn’t “want to talk to him”… I don’t condone abuse nor whippings to no end BUT as I stated in my post if it comes down to me Jacking up Asa or prison guards doing it later in his life because I had no ready “weapon” against rebellion THEN so be it…I don’t anticipate I should have these probs with my lil King but nor am I naive…her rantings are just that and should NOT be condoned!!!! 

    • Who is Demetrius?

      “Shameless ranting for her opportunistic platform — feminism.”

      I think your comment has ranting covered. As for feminism, you should get some in your life.

    • Ummm what? So what is the purpose of your rant Tigress?

      Let’s just say the teens lied on their father, you don’t see that as a problem? He is the leader of a flock of over 30k but cannot control the two that live with him? What a fantastic leader!!! OH yeah but that doesn’t matter. He admitted to beating a 15 year old female with a shoe to teach her a lesson…what a lesson to teach a young lady. If the head of your household doesn’t like your behavior or something you said then you deserve to be beaten on the floor with a shoe. Is this the proper weapon to use against rebellion?
      Tigress women like you scare me because you are the mother of a son. A man is capable of conducting himself as a proper, appropriate, disciplinarian in every instance. It is also possible for him to lose his temper and no one get hit. And it is also possible for him to act inappropriately. your guess is as good as hers or mine seeing you weren’t there either.

      It sickens me when excuses are made. Please do not honor mediocrity. If he is unable to conduct him self in his own home as a protector of women and children then he should seek out counsel and perfect new techniques. Then and only then should he be allowed to counsel other men on what to do and women on how to react. His message was ‘I should not have been arrested’. I agree, he should have behaved better either that night or in the rearing of his girls…. His wife was there, is she a ranting feminist too or the girls were just super out of control…Please open you eyes soon you will raise someone you will be a shamed of later. Children rebel and it is a slave/master mentality to condone beating it out of them. Men should be held accountable EVERY TIME they go to far with the black woman. we have been conditioned to take it because we are the peace makers and it is just our job. My 13 yr old is my height if I hit him his instinct is going to be to hit me back, I taught him that. Nobody beats the king…. and for all that is holy, the rebellion should never be beaten from any man or woman!!! It is in cohort with their humanity and passions. Assata was rebellious. Marley was a rebel and so was El Hajj Malik El Shabazz and Gandhi.

      Opportunistic, ha!!! Let this woman have her shine…

  85. Atheism saves a whole hell of a lot of heartache.

    Seriously, judge Mr. Dollar hard. He deserves it. Whatever his daughter did, he is the adult. It is his job to model how an adult acts. An adult does not physically assault someone just because he doesn’t like it when they cry, or whatever you think might have “provoked” him.

    • Thank you! People get so caught up in what their “holy” book says and ignore the human element. Even liberal religious folks can’t help but run to their book to see what it says about stuff…how about just deciding for yourself that something isn’t right because it harms someone?

  86. You made some interesting points. However, your VERY FIRST comment was that Black women should start walking out of the church and taking your money with you. Don’t even go to church if its about $$ to you. That statement all but discredits all your other feelings.

    • Clearly, we disagree. And your point is reductionist. Of course church isn’t about money. Church is about worshipping together among a community of believers. At the same time, we can’t deny that it is Black women’s money that keeps pastors paid, the lights on, etc. And folk of faith continue to compel black women to give via tithe/offering to churches that preach stuff from the pulpit that denies our humanity by insisting that we are tithing to God, not to men. I believe we are giving to God, when we give to God’s churches, but we have some agency, too. We don’t just have to keep on financially supporting folks who are not preaching life giving words. But when you start talking about the pocket book folks get scared, and then try to call your character and commitment to Christ into question. All of that is a fear driven politics that is designed to make Black women feel guilty for exercising the agency to walk up out of places that aren’t doing us any good. And you won’t manipulate me with that guilt. It’s a lie from the pit of hell (if you’ll permit me to be evangelical with you). So I’m still walking out and taking my hard-earned tithe and offering elsewhere. No apologies. And I hope more sisters do the same. I guarantee you preachers will start listening then.

  87. @ZenMamaPolitic Would I be wrong if I added to her article that ‘The Black Church’ (by mimicking White Patriarchal Church norms), is actually helping to promote both the physical and symbolic violence against Black women and girls? And if I did say it…assuming that it were true. Shouldn’t Black women that are the largest in numbers re-examine their relationship with the Black Church, and the way in which they are commodified by Black men, within it? I’m Just saying.

  88. For so long its been a man’s world and women have been second class citizens and black women at the very bottom. We have to break the cycle stand up for equal rights and fair treatment and let them know its not okay. We will not continue to be oppressed. Women of the world must unite. Knowledge is power and we have strength in numbers.

  89. No comments @ this time need to read the police report, also hear both sides of the story. There’s two sides to every story! The one without SIN cast the first stone. Thank you.

  90. I dig your analysis, but in my defense of parenthood AND the church – I don’t see how this situation has caused the church to ‘fail’ its women. This parent happens to be a pastor and they happen to be Black, but neither situation to me means that the church has failed because they didn’t what – crucify him? Now, did the father go too far? Possibly. Did the child deserve to be dealt with because of her own behavior (and mind you, as a parent, I am wondering if this was a situation that had been brewing for some time and finally came to a head)…possibly. Either way, merging this situation to “precisely because of the Black Church’s continued willingness to advocate problematic, violent, hierarchical stances against women and gay people that I continue to struggle.” the best bases for your analysis is questionable. Nevertheless, this was YOUR analysis and you are entitled to it.

    I believe that churches have a responsibility to their communities to advocate for the rights of believers and non-believers. Women and girls are at the center of that need with the understanding that most Black churches’ majority is female. Unfortunately, many churches – Black, White, or whatever – do not work from a justice perspective. That said, I find it exhausting and unfruitful to attack ignorance where it concerns justice issues and even misinterpretation of scripture. It is not impossible to empower or educate the church, because I’ve done it – but it is counterproductive to attack what many do not understand. You seem versed in scripture. I would admonish you to use this same energy to educate and enlighten on a broader scale – begin with your church and the pastor you walked out on. God knows we need more social justice advocates and educators on the ground who love God and God’s people who are positioned and ready to peel away man-made doctrines that oppress us instead of liberate us.

    As a womanist, mother, social justice advocate and a Christian I also believe that those of us working from both social justice and faith-based perspectives have to be careful in how we frame our analyses. It is a dangerous dance at times because we have a responsibility to FIRST our faith and then to our work. Good or bad parenting/respectful or disrespectful children is the issue here to me, and I don’t feel comfortable in throwing either under the bus. For all I know, the girl had some form of discipline coming and she picked the wrong night to provoke her father with her persistence to be rewarded with a party after she dropped the ball in her studies. Trust, I am not overlooking our history of violence through slavery pre or post the middle passage, but I’m also not undervaluing a parent’s attempt to get his child’s attention once and for all.

    Let’s be clear, no child wants to be disciplined and especially physically. By that same token, no parent wants to be disrespected-period. Our “ownership” of our children is relative. Society makes parent’s responsible for every aspect of our children’s lives then regulates how we culturally apply that responsibility. Some say a whopping is too much, others say time-out doesn’t work – either way, if my child doesn’t get the lesson, society is the first to call me out for bad parenting. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Some of us may not like HOW he handled it, but please believe…it’s handled. BOTH of them walked away from this situation with a different understanding.

    Again, I dug your analysis – please accept mine.

    • Hi Cherisse, Many thanks for your analyses. As I noted in the post, I have been deeply involved in the Black (Baptist) Church my whole life and I was a part of the Atlanta megachurch scene for the six years when I was in graduate school. I wholeheartedly stand by my analysis that when the church consistently misinterprets and/or conservatively interprets scriptures in ways that are systematically detrimental to women, it fails us. It fails to protect us, to advocate for us, to be a safe space for us, all of which is what I understand to be what the Church should be for all who seek it out.

      Dollar stood in front of his church on Sunday and threw his daughters under the bus. There was no humility. There was just calling his kid a liar essentially, and reaffirming his “right” to discipline. But the parents I know would’ve been more humble. If he did lose it, then he should have been more humble. If his kid on the other hand just resents him so much that she wanted to cause trouble, still he should’ve been more humble. What parent’s first move is to get up in church and make sure everyone knows that his kid is a liar? If it is necessary to communicate such a fact, what parent does it like he’s testifying against his enemy instead of his own flesh and blood? And I could see if it was one unruly, angry teen, but her older sister backed her story. Why do his two daughters hate him so much?

      Finally, I am firmly in the camp that no grown man should beat a fifteen year old girl and call it discipline. I don’t care if she popped off. I don’t care if she was repeatedly disrespectful. I don’t care. And from reading the police report, it looks like HE followed HER and picked the fight.

      Before I wrote this post, I called and talked to my own mom about it. She was strict as hell, and I have no illusions that she would’ve hemmed me up if I had gotten out of line (which is precisely why I didn’t). But she made it quite clear that she would have had serious problems with any man putting his hands on me, once I was a teenager.

      And that is a critical and important distinction. My post is not anti-parenting, and it is not anti-discipline. But anyone who thinks they are “spanking” a fifteen year old is deluded. And to the extent that I can support spanking, I certainly wouldn’t support once a child is over say age 8 or 9. And I definitely don’t support this man choking his daughter.

      The way we keep talking about this assumes that there is something she could have done that would justify his violent behavior. And like I said in the post, there is not. I believe in a parent’s right to discipline, to set rules and standards, and to be tough. I don’t believe we have the right to get violent with our children, and while I acknowledge that there are times when we have to restrain them after they’ve gotten violent with us, I’m never going to support a father choking and slapping his fifteen year old daughter. Five years from now if some man does it to her, he’ll be all up in arms, and then he’ll need to look at the standard he set.

      As for my responsibilities to church, clearly I’m passionate about the church. But I”m also increasingly disillusioned. And I tried to have discussions like these in my prior church. It didn’t go well. You can scroll through the comment section to get a taste of the kind of vitriolic, (fear-driven), violent policing I experienced. So let’s just say I’m in process on that point. Thanks for reading.

  91. I found this article interesting on several different fronts. Going backwards, I noticed the comments you made about Black people’s or the Black Church’s theology. This was an interesting concept for me because although I’ve seen the recreation of Black Church’s on films or occasionally on TV I’ve never been introduced really to “it’s” theology. I was confused because as a black person I didn’t know I had a specific theology. I was not raised in the church (because of what my father perceived as charlatans and antics disguising non-truths). I home studied and thus created my own brand of theology. Discussing this with my fiancé who didn’t grow up in the church either, he agreed that we should build our beliefs together and not leave our or our children’s souls to a man or woman in a collar. I recently tried going to physical churches and I’ve become VERY weary because I hear a lot of preaching and only a little Bible reading. I’m not bashing churches or church leaders. I just don’t agree with blindly following anyone. So I’ve gone to different churches to see if their theology jibe with my own. Many people have attempted to guilt me for this.

    Now, when I initially read about this story, I didn’t automatically assume he was guilty or that his child was a brat, but I was HURT by how readily and without question his congregation applauded him and even gave a standing ovation. WHY???????? True, we don’t know the whole story which also means that he very well could have hit that girl as well as it could mean that he might not have. But why would you applaud a man where this is even a possibility? Hitting a girl/woman with a shoe – Ike and Tina ring any bells??? And how many of us wanted to burn a man’s house down when we saw that movie?

    My feelings are that religious leaders are powerful in their communities and beyond. How many people stood by priests when were consistently over decades molesting children and very few within the Catholic religion would outwardly condemn priests until these things were proven. Power can create corruption, a feel like that is common sense. And I feel like a leader of mega-Church who is unequivocally backed by an unquestioning congregation is not used to hearing “no”. He is probably not used to being defied and therefore did feel the need to “correct” his daughter in the biblical sense. How far it went only God knows. I feel as Christians our allegiance is not to our religious leaders it is to our LORD and SAVIOR. A priest, bishop, pastor, reverend, deacon whatever is merely a conduit – a human conduit that is very capable of sin and mistakes. I’ve met so many “God fearing” men and women who did the dirtiest most underhanded things. So when you all say lets not rush to judge Creflo Dollar, remember he is human and lets not rush to support him OVER his daughter whom we nothing about.

    Secondly I wanted to address the question “Why I wonder are Black women so willing, so ready to co-sign theologies that literally support us getting our asses kicked in our own homes?”

    I remember when the Rhianna issue hit the news. The woman was clearly beaten. And I noticed a whole lot of black women saying ish like well she shouldn’t have been acting so tough. She shouldn’t have put her hands in his face. If you put your hands on a man you should expect to get beat. I kept asking why is the answer always what “she” should or shouldn’t do instead. This embedded notion that a man is not responsible for his actions is something that has been spun since the beginning of time. The man is innocent, the woman is the seductress. The man was calm, but the woman provoked him. It is the MAIN reason why so many rapes and other violence goes unreported because a woman is made to feel shame for what she caused a man to do to HER. Likewise, it is embedded in our men to project outward “why do you make me hit you”. This phenomena handicaps our boys from truly growing into men. It hinders them from truly taking responsibility for their actions and changing into better men. I hear too many boys saying they never had a chance because of the “system” or dad or their mom or their teachers. Or that they act a certain way because someone provoked them. How can we teach our boys and men collectively that they are responsible for their actions and anger. That no one makes you do/feel anything. You choose what you do and how you react. And how do we teach our girls and women that you teach people how to treat you? By your actions and your words. Going back to a man who beats you teaches that man that it’s okay. Not reporting a rape reaffirms the message to a rapist that you somehow deserved it. It was very brave of this girl who is the daughter of a religious celebrity to report what happened to her. Whether you believe her or not. This will teach Mr. Dollar that he needs to think long and hard how he treats his daughters.

  92. Pastor dollar
    You don’t know me,but I’m from unity missionary christian church ,here in Nashville.
    I have read the report,an that’s what’s wronge with this world, back in the day u could punish your child an no whone had any thing to do with it.
    All I can say is ,I am praying for your family an you,GOD BLess you all,love your preaching on tv

  93. Hello,

    I think I’m late in this conversation, but I wrote a blog post about this directly in response to you. I think you, whoever you are (I’m not sure; maybe I missed it on this page) are an astute, articulate, and amazingly courageous woman. I think your decision to leave the church was one that many of us would not have made.

    But I do want to raise a point directly related to your point number five: there isn’t really a way to causally link (one way or the other) whoopings to better behavior, unless we are able to get into every person’s head. The question here is about violence, its nature, its meaning, its function, and whether or not it is useful. Violence (particularly of the parental sort) has been part of the cultural world of many (African) Americans, and it is part of what it means to be a human being. This violence isn’t always physical; but whatever form it takes, we, as human beings, are accustomed to it. This may or may not be a good thing, but it is human, and we have to wrestle with this in ways that are a bit more sensitive and a bit less dismissive. This, of course, is not to defend Dollar or any other person who puts his or her hands on a child. But it is to ask what I think is the harder question: what viable alternative do you propose? The etymological analysis of discipline you provide in your post is very useful for a child who is more or less mild-mannered and not really concerned with pushing boundaries. But there are those children who end up on those talk shows, embarrassing their parents by being unruly and uncontrollable. And, for many African Americans I know, the solution is always the same: they wouldn’t be on that show if they had gotten beat. Even Jesus himself as a teacher became frustrated and said presumably violent things to his disciples (at least in the book of Mark, anyway).

    Furthermore, and not to belabor the point too much more, human beings endure the possibility of violence by living in social settings. Breaking the rules often results in seclusion, primarily in the form of incarceration. The injustices and disproportionate numbers present in the prison industrial complex notwithstanding, we do not protest in outrage when, say, a George Zimmerman faces prison time for having broken the rules. It is violent to place someone in jail, but it is an accepted violence, an almost necessary violence, for the whole of society to continue with some semblance of order and justice, even though this order and justice may only be superficial.

    With all of that being said, Creflo Dollar was horrible for what he did, and as I say in my blog post (forgive me for the shameless plugging), he needs to sit down and not preach until he gets his stuff together. But his violence is rather extreme, a form of violence that was taken too far. And therefore, is our outrage REALLY at parental violence itself, or is it some other exacerbating factor about this particular case–say the one committing the act (Creflo), the recipient of the violence (Creflo’s daughter), or the heinous nature of the crime– that merits our attention and causes such disgust and outrage? What is it about this case that forces us to reflect? And what viable alternatives do we propose to violent parental tactics when they’ve been proven–at least in the parents’ minds–to be effective?

    I’m sorry for the length, and you may not even read this. But I just had a few thoughts.

    • Hi Biko,

      I think you are asking a very important question about violence. But it seems you are really asking how you deal with a difficult child. The thing is when I watch the kind of talk shows you are talking about, it seems very clear to me that the teenagers who are acting a fool didn’t get proper boundaries and messages in childhood. I’m not saying that all wayward teenagers are the result of bad parenting, but I firmly believe that if you instill proper values when your children are young, some things you won’t encounter when they are teens.

      I got spankings. Not very many, and most times my mother didn’t hit me in anger, but did so after taking a cool off period. To be honest with you, while I’m ideally opposed to violence, I have spanked (one or two firm pats) my nephews when they were young. I have popped the hands of a toddler to communicate that something is wrong or dangerous. So I’m not vilifying all spanking. But I do hope not to use it with my own children. And that is because I think Black children grow up in a context of violence, and our recourse to violent discipline in Black communities is deeply rooted in protecting our children from this violence that they will face outside. So I get it. But I want to be transformative as much as possible. I know that’s hard when your kid is acting a fool though.

      In this case, if my fifteen year old was acting a fool and I needed to get CRUNK, I might have put her out of the house. Given her a sleeping bag and a tent, a ration of food, and put her in the back yard. (This is the South; they live in a big mansion.) I might have explained to her that if she left the premises without permission, when she returned the locks would be changed and she would need a police escort to get back in. Or I might have driven her to the police station or a youth shelter myself. Or called the police if she was completely out of control. So I’m not saying that he shouldn’t have been tough or put up with her disrespect.

      Last, let me say, that GENDER MATTERS. A grown man should not put his hands on a young woman. Period. In every other instance, we call this domestic violence. Parenting should not change this. At some point, spanking becomes age-inappropriate. We should be able to admit at least that much. And as a father to a Black girl, he has the responsibility to raise her to deal with the world she’s gonna face. In that world, Black hetero-girls are frequently victims of domestic violence in staggering numbers.

      So in some ways, the more theoretical discussion of violence has to be deeply contextualized for the violence that is normalized both inside and outside Black communities towards Black people.

      And with regard to incarceration, I’m pretty convinced that jails are full of young men and women who got spanked, beaten, and abused. Pretty much explodes the notion that violence is a deterrent to future violence.

      Thanks for reading.

  94. My gut tells me that there is so much more to this story but I have to say that at the end of the day, Creflo was wrong.There is never an excuse to beat a teenaged child (because once the child leaves its formative years, it is no longer a spanking and is considered a beating…there is a difference). Let me be clear….self-defense may sometimes require that a teen-aged child be beaten but Creflo was not in fear for his life and therefore did not need to “beat” this child…..not even with a shoe as he confessed to. I am a mother so let’s render the “you’re not a mother theme” unusable. I also work with teenage boys and girls everyday as a social worker and so I know exactly how they can behave. The thing that is being most overlooked here is that we are responsible for our own actions. This means that Creflo’s daughter did not provoke him. He provoked himself because of some feeling etched in his own psyche. He responded to her actions by reacting to an internal trigger. It is often difficult to recognize the signs that cause us to respond and so we naturally impose our emotional angst on to someone else. We are all guilty of it as human beings and it is a life long pursuit to bring our personal defense mechanism under submission. But, that is still no excuse. So in short, Creflo was wrong not because he was angered by his daughter but because he allowed his anger to control his actions. As for the church and how it responds to these types of situations, I am still working out my thoughts on this matter. Not because I don’t agree or disagree with crunktastic (because actually my leanings as a general rule tends to concur with hers) but because the church is just a representation of who we are as human beings…after-all we do make up the church. I believe that someone in an earlier post attempted to express this but was not clearly understood because of the phrasing of their sentiments and the context in which they were placed. I will attempt to be clearer. We are the church and so that means that the corporate identity of the church is merely a reflection of what goes on in the lives of its parishioners. Creflo could not speak this kind of thing into existence if the basis for it were not already in place.The root of this malaise can be traced to our early American beginnings. Plymouth Rock is where we’ll have to look to if we want to truly identify the root cause of this behavior. It is not a black thing or a white thing…it is an America thing and we are all fighting the backlash of “group think.” That is why “crunktastic’s voice stands out….because she has clearly been working on freeing her personal voice from the tribal voice. It is also why so many of Creflo’s followers and the world at large have acquiesced and are not even interested in considering another perspective. It is our biggest challenge as human beings….that of finding our own path, walking it and standing firm in our convictions. The thing that keeps us most blinded is our inability to even know that we are blind.

  95. What will people say if the duagther of the preacher become wayward under his roof by choice he allowed her to make without outstanding objection like the one we are discussing today ?

    • Probably people will say that that is typical of a PK. But Abel it seems to me that you are saying we should judge him if his daughter becomes wayward but we should withold judgement if he was abusive. If you feel he should be ashamed for letting his daughter get out of control by not disciplining her should he not also be ashamed for causing her to get out of control because of excessive discipline?

  96. It is a sin if we don’t demand accountability from our Pastors, God is not a respecter of anybody. We are all called to bear fruits worthy of repentance. “Pastor worshipping is idol worshipping, if we are purposefully blind to their indiscretion “

  97. Well u messed up when you compared this situation to Chris Brown and RiRi…bc RiRi did admit she hit Chris Brown first…so now it makes me wonder the fact that does a woman have a right to place hands on a man bc shes mad and expect not to hit bck…we r humans and we react to pain….but in this case we don’t know all what happen to escalate to the point of the discipline…this could have been some ongoing issues..I remember getting hit with shoes, switches etc..and I did not call the police…but I was mad as hell at my parents…what society see as beatings we use to call them wuppings….we need to let God handle his CHILD and we as Christians need to pray on the family behalf that the family get the right help that’s needed.

  98. So, spanking your children is child abuse and means you’re angry? So what happens when that child is 15 – 17 years old and choke you and throws you over the coach and you have to call the police to come to your assistance because you did not believe in spanking when that child was 7, 8, 9, 10 years old but you believed in “time out.” Hmmmm…. interesting.

    • Who said spanking was child abuse? I didn’t. I said choking &punching are abuse and that we should consider whether spanking is really as effective a form of discipline as we are so ready to believe. That is all.

    • This is weak. Between “timeouts” on the one end, and choking and punching on the other, lies an ocean. I feel sorry for the parent, and even sorrier for the child, who thinks those are the only options.

      If Dollar’s been using the rod on that young woman for all these years, but finds her so ill-disciplined and out of control that he has to strangle and beat her over a party, clearly the rod hasn’t done the trick.

      There is absolutely no known correlation between not beating your kids when they’re young, and finding them to be violent and out of control when they’re older. It’s outrageous. The opposite, in fact, is true. Violence is a learned behavior, which is why families face generations, patterns, and cycles of violence and abuse. People need to get their heads out of the middle ages, already.

    • What happens is that you’ve failed as a parent and the police now need to be involved and take up where your failed parenting left off.

      Not spanking does not mean not disciplining. Not spanking does not mean you abdicate the responsibility of parenting. And if choking and beating are the only tools ifnyour arsenal of parenting that could stop your 15-17 from choking you, you have failed as a parent. Failed miserably, actually.

  99. I totally agree with you sister there is to much mental and physical violence against women and what for. What does it accomplish. Were talking our mothers and future mothers. They must be protected from violence weak men. The churches are filled with hypocrites with their fantasies about a just God. They say they believe in God who they can’t see but don’t believe a word this young gril says, who they know and have seen all her life. Now she’s a liar because her father is the preacher. What hypocrisy!

  100. Pingback: A Few Thoughts on Creflo Dollar and Black Parents Spanking Their Kids « Davey D's Hip Hop Corner-(The Blog)

  101. If you don’t believe what Crunktastic has to say carries any weight or validity, just take a look at this scholarly article. Even academia is taking notice of this “resilience trap” that got a hold of black women. Cut, paste, Google this and read it: Psychol Trauma. 2010 Dec;2(4):266-272. The Mediating Role of Empowerment for African American Women Experiencing Intimate Partner Violence. Wright CV, Perez S, Johnson DM. Source Summa-Kent State Center for the Treatment and Study of Traumatic Stress.

  102. There is no justification in the short comings of human beings; male or female. That is why Christ died for our sins… run Creflo through the system if you want…in the world that we live, his money will by him out. Domestic violence is not the way to understanding….it’s not the quality of life we want. We have to love each other through this thing and get some anger management on the way…LOL!

  103. Reblogged this on “Writing History With Lightning”: Southern History Through Film and commented:
    The comments on this blog are heart breaking. I don’t understand when people say things like “no one knows what really happened except the people there.” Folks only say that when they are supporting the person in power. And make no mistake, to take no side in a dispute is to side with the person in power. In this case it’s Dollar.

    We make value judgements about issues all the time. An example of this is the Trayvon Martin case. We understand that its not acceptable to shoot an unarmed child, no matter the excuse (as I hope we understand that it’s not okay to choke and kick a kid too). However, we hear people who support the shooting of that young young man trying to argue that we should “wait and see” or that “none of us knows what really happened,” or something equally as ridiculous. The same things that some of us argue in support of Dollar. Is it only acceptable to hurt one of our children if you’re a member of the community?

    I think her point was that as a community we must decide if we are willing to continue to allow (a few) men absolute power over women and children. Black women fill the seats in many Black churches, but in many cases they are subjugated even within the four walls that are supposed to support them.

  104. Pingback: Reblog: When the Church Fails Its Women: 7 Truths We Need to Tell About Creflo Dollar, Black Daughters and Violence « Chesya Burke

  105. Good grief! What a lot to take in. Every time I thought I was ready to comment, I read another post that gave me pause. On the whole, I am utterly tired of folks hiding behind biblical quotes — direct and distorted. I am tired of people holding back on living and loving for fear that enjoying life itself will keep them out of heaven. I am sick of people who think God is sitting up in the sky with a big old gavel waiting to convict and sentence. To the point: I am tired of people like Joybells. With that out of the way, let me say, Crunktastic, that you are bold and righteous to offer a point of view that needs to be considered. My first instinct was to side with the daughter — well, to be honest, it was to side against Creflo Dollar (I admit that his name irks me). A close male friend — who, as a single, divorced parent, raised his baby girl to womanhood in a nonviolent, wholesome manner — suggested I gather more info before drawing a line in the sand. But even as he tempered my disgust with Dollar, I remembered the close relationship he had with his own daughter, as well as the complete bafflement that came upon him during her teenage years. My friend wanted to have some sympathy for Dollar. Yet, I couldn’t help but wonder how in the heck Dollar and his daughter had come to a place of such mutual disrespect and distrust. Even during their most trying times, my friend and his daughter — both stubborn — were able to respect each other’s humanity, They had spent so much time laughing together, doing homework together, going to church together, debating appropriate music/clothes/friends. They had cultivated not only unconditional love fore each other but also respect for each other’s roles: dad, daughter. Having been reared himself in a strict Christian home, my friend is certain the church itself got between Dollar and his daughter developing a more loving and trusting relationship. The church that made the pastor deity. The church that made the pastor superhuman, unreachable. The church that overlooked the need a child has for their Daddy’s attention. Of course, Dollar is ultimately responsible for his relationship with his child, not the church folk. But the church folk fuel the fire if they fail to advocate for these daughters.

  106. In order to emote pain it has to be within you…he beat her…what do you think she is going to to do her children. Mothers beat daughters and sons too….I think it is more of a domestic violence issue then a feminist issue as it pertains to the actual incident now how the police department investigate and handle the situation is another thing. The church followers that clap for him…they are just going to do that anyway…sorry I just see all of that as mob mentality….as a christian you do not have to go to a big church with cameras etc to have your devotion and relationship with God….I cant do nothing but laugh at them folk. I am concerned about this father and daughter relationship.

  107. I find it sad that Christians are always the first to jump up and condemn one another. We are to cover each other’s nakedness because the more we are divided as Christians the more we are liable to fall. If we are in one accord and one mind there is nothing we cannot do in the body of Christ. Instead of us sitting here to write a whole blog why arent we using that time to pray because whether we like it or not this is a reflection of the church and not just creflo dollar. The family needs prayer and counseling not a blog condemning the man of God. Be careful how we talk because anyone of us can fall at anytime and it’s not always by our control. Let’s talk less and pray more

    • Prayer and dialogue are not either/or propositions. They are both/and propositions. And I don’t agree that my only recourse is to pray (and I have prayed for the family). We are also called to speak truth to power. I have done that. And I won’t apologize for it.

      • Alright Crunktastic (I even put the capital C). I belive you to be a sister of intelligence and power. It appears to me that you’re holding the same attitude that brother Dollar and his daughter had. Looks like they are the twin personalities of the family. If they both let go of their attitudes and embrace one another as father and daughter then…It is the parents responsibility to take care of their children. It isnt optional. I don’t belive that they should at anytime be brutal to them. At some point in time the child should catch on and realize that life aint what it’s looking like when they begin to become and fight for certain kinds of independence.

        Let’s just imagine that she has never said…I don’t feel like enjoying this a.c. or I don’t feel like living in this comfortable home which has never seen the lights or water or cable or etc turned turned off or disconnected or i dont feel like going to this refridgerator that always has good fresh food in it or i dont like having all the clothes, shoes, etc that i need or want before and after school starts or so on. We know that she’s got because he’s got it. That’s one of the reasons that I didnt listen to his sermons anymore because they became more about “prosperity” than anything that I found value in.

        Inbox me please…

  108. So if Creflo shows the Black church fails it’s daughters I guess Alice Walker show Black feminism fails it’s daughters. I like one set of rules.

    • Interesting…I don’t like this male vs female thing. It’s ok to disagree and having opposing views but I hold out hope and faith that we can either resolve most of our issues and walk away leaving each in peace not pieces and put it to rest.

  109. Knowing how teenager behave there is no way that when she was told no that she just leave the room quite and just cried o please, for me she should be whip but the next thing is how she was whip if she was whip how she said, I think that would have been a little extreme.

  110. I was going to post this somewhere else but here we go:

    Regrettable situation and a teenager with a bad attitude. I no longer follow (listen to his sermons, never attended his church) his message but he is a very intelligent and knowledgeable man. Having worked with teenagers and youth, I can testify that they can conspire and be very sinister in their words, thoughts, and actions which is why I left that field of work. In an attempt to control the environment, 1 teenager and 2 preteens stated “lets’ get Mr. so and so fired”. That’s just one example.

    The 911 operator was most likely surprised to have taken that particular call but you could also tell by the tone of the call that intervention was needed but that it was not a 911 emergency at that time. If you haven’t experienced it yet, I hope that no one voicing their opinion on here ever has the privilege of providing food, clothing and shelter for a teenager turned tyrant that has decided to take control of the house hold without the privilege of responsibility. There’s nothing as wonderful as looking at the tonsils and teeth of a teen with an attitude problem after a long day’s work and the pressures of life on your shoulders.

    There’s nothing worse than a million people in one families house hold bringing their opinions, attituteds, motives, and ideas into an already complicated situation. 1 ass whipping does not equate a life time of abuse. They inadvertently got the intervention that they need with the public attention but listen to what follows closely…If the daughter had maintained her position as a child, growing into young womanhood and we most likely would have had this event. If brother dollar had been blessed with more experience in resolving conflicts with young people maybe this would have been avoided. She went from performing poorly in school to trying to party with everyone else to having a poor attitude with her parent to bringing in police to a situation that kicked off with her unpleasant attitude and behavior. What’s unfortunate now is that she has been empowered by not facing any consequences that would deter this behavior and is not mature enough to understand the results of her actions. It appears to me that she’s the child that is most like the parent that she has the conflict with.

    My final opinion…if we can’t be supportive of the family and encourage the daughter to be more responsible on her level and encourage the parents to establish an environment that is supportive of the daughters but with limits on what is acceptable behavior and acceptable means to deal with problems that do not include physical and verbal aggression nor negative feedback from the daughter then we are not qualified to “be all up in their business”. Yes Dollar is a “public” figure and a “man of the cloth” but our attitudes for and against religion is usually greater than the problem at hand.

    • On point!

      Although, I follow [listen and watch] Creflo Dolalr and believe he is a man God called to wear the cloth…Yet, I know he is 1st and foremost a man, so no idol worshipping, but, I still like him and pray for the entire family. I have been rebellious as a teenager, so I know what teenagers are capable of and extent they can provoke the ‘saintest’ of men.

    • Frankly I am tired of hearing person after person dismiss these girls because “teenagers can be so horrible, and OMG the disrespect these days.” If we want to throw Bible verses around, let’s try this one: “Don’t let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in speech, in life, in love, in faith and in purity.” 1 Timothy 4:12.

      The church is meant to respect young people for who they are and what they are capable of, and respect their words instead of demand their silence and obedience because of their youth. Simply because a girl is a teenager doesn’t invalidate her word, her pain, or even her original disappointment because she couldn’t go to a party.

      “Teenagers are frustrating” is not a legal defense. “She’s a teenager” is not a valid reason to assume a girl – in fact, two girls – falsely accused their father. In fact, by saying they did, you’re saying they committed a crime themselves, because false reporting is in fact illegal in almost every state.

      I’m not willing to condemn Dollar for domestic battery without a trial. Unlike others I’ve seen comment here, I’m also not willing to acquit him because it’s his teenage girls accusing him. Nor, by the way, am I prepared to say that only those who have parented a teenager can understand this case. In fact, I’m prepared to say it’s harder in a way because clearly a parent’s judgment is shaded by whatever they went through with their kids.

      I’m not willing to con

  111. I am shocked by how many times people admonish “judgement”- do you not know that we are called to keep each other accountable? How can we keep each other accountable if we do not judge- there is no where in the Bible that it asks us not to judge- look it up. Oprah tells us not to judge but God wants justice- he wants us to rebuke those that sin. Plain and simple. We are called to judge every time we arrest someone, call someone in the church office, scold a child or confront a friend who has betrayed us. Those are all Biblical forms of judgment. The type of judgment we should not partake in is judging someone to satisfy our own pride. But this is not the case. No, we were not there- but because we were not we cannot turn a blind eye to something that very well could have happened. We must give this 15 year old young adult the proper respect to INVESTIGATE what really happened. Murderers are convicted daily and there are no witnesses to their crimes- just because no one was there does not mean that this did not really happen. We must use deductive reasoning. So called “men of God” are really just one things- MEN. Human beings that can sin, mess up, do the wrong thing. We cannot let our devotion to a man- rise above our devotion to the Word- and justice of God.

    • Wise comment, but I wanted to share that any 15 year old is not an “adult” or a “young adult.” She or he is both an adolescent and still a child. Thanks very much!

  112. Why any woman remains a Christian (or a Muslim, or Jew, or any of the patriarchal religions) is a mystery to me. It’s slavery, pure and simple — do as you’re told (by your god or the male clergy who claim to speak for him), otherwise you’ll be punished…maybe even for eternity.

    • why any women remains a sinner? is a mystery to me. it’s slavery pure and simple- do as you’re told (by the devil)

  113. I’m so sorry for all these nasty comments you’re getting, but sorrier still for the people who are saying that the daughter wasn’t totally innocent, how she was probably yelling and disrespectful. It reminds me of people saying Trayvon Martin probably hit Zimmerman, therefore, it’s ok that he was shot and killed. Your teenager yelled disrespectful things at you (like teenage daughters do), so she ended up choked, “whooped” and on the ground? YEAH, that sounds like very Christlike and justified. I just want to cry.

  114. #9 was EVERYTHING! People never want to deal with that story in it’s true context. That’s why we have such an issue of sick, incestuous relationships going back generations and generations in Black families. No, it’s not just a White people’s problem. People, wake up! Stop letting other people with agendas and massive skeletons in their own closets speak for you!

  115. For those who believe that “spare the rod” has anything to do with spanking, clearly you have not “studied” the Bible in full context with the Hebrew and Greek understandings. The “rod” is discipline itself or the witholding thereof. Nothing to do with spanking. it is directed at those parents who do not love their children enough to even correct them when they are wrong. Study to show yourself approved…

  116. I have more questions….if this was a woman who did this to her son what would one say about that? If Creflo wasn’t a man of God what would one say then? Since I read that Creflo has 5 children why hasn’t the other 3 come forward to validate his daughters claim that he is indeed a violent man? Why did the courts allow him to go back and live with his daughters but not say anything to the 15 year old? Isn’t her protection worth more than his living arrangement? Why hasn’t Creflo and his daughters taken a lie detector test to see who’s telling the truth? Why do one see the need to automatically side with Creflo or his daughter without proof? Why wasn’t the daughter taken to the hospital for further investigation to see if her story matched her “superficial wounds”? The mother claimed she didn’t see the fight but why wasn’t she able to hear the altercation? If the judicial system really believed that he in fact hurt her why was his bail so low? The daughter claimed he has done this before based on the 911 recordings, so you would think all the other children were at some point given the same treatment! What would one say IF the daughter was intact lying the entire time? What would happen to Creflo is he actually did these crimes considering how much money he has? We all know that money talks in the judicial system. I am not siding with no one because as I stated before I was a victim of abuse as well but I am definitely NOT going to say I believe one person right off the gate when we don’t know who I believe. A police report isn’t enough for me when I know for a fact that a police officer have to write down everything someone says whether he/she to believe it true or not! If a police officer can beat up a person for no reason and write up a report saying he found the person already in that condition who do we believe the person with the wounds or the police report? What do we say when there are children/teens who beat their parents senseless and/or kill their parents? What about the boy that killed his mother because they got into an argument about him breaking curfew and he stabbed her at least 30 times because “he was mad”? What do one say when a women beats on a man? My brother was I an abusive relationship for 15 years and never lated a hand on her but because he didn’t he thought is was alright to keep punching, kicking, and throwing bottles at him! like I said before no one deserves to be beaten and no one deserves to be lied upon! There were times when I was a teenager living in the foster home and because I didn’t like my foster mother (at first) I was willing to bruise myself and call the cops and tell them that she beat me! I didn’t do it because I would have regretted that but there are those teens that do go through it! There are also those teens that pay someone to kill their parents! And yes there are those parents who don’t deserve children because so many children have died by the hands of their parents! So until there is more evidence I am on the fence with this situation!

  117. How did this informative report rescind to women against the world? The main point I reflect on after reading the official police report was powerful men and women when found in error or gross misconduct cling to their reputations to save face before the society at large. Thinking that their power and influence will act as a righteous cover. Creflo Dollar… What a name, what a name!

    The name implies a medium to practice deception. Of course his follower’s will take his word as truth, even over the innocents of his teenage daughter, but the second older daughter confirms the truth the victim/sister tells. Now his follower’s are in the valley of decision as to whom to believe. Will they continue to support and back Dollar/money, or believe the facts once they are fully revealed in court proceedings to come?

    Dollar/bill needs to come clean like Jimmy Swagger, or he will use his influence to sway public opinion as he done from his pulpit, or grand make shift sancuary.

  118. The bible says spare the rod, spoil the child and even if she didn’t make bad grades…There is absolutely no reason for a 15 year old to be going anywhere at 1 a.m., til 1 a.m., or anywhere around that time for that matter and you damn sure not gonna disrespect me or my husband under the roof we’re providing and paying for, so I 100% agree with his actions…I would have did more then that….no child should ever have the guts to tell their parents they don’t want to talk and I would still be whooping her for calling the police And they would have a reason to take me to jail!!! People let they kids get away with too much nowadays and then wonder why the world is the way it is today!!!

    • ^^^^^^^Reads as though you are passing on the generational curse to garner respect and submission of children by beating, or violence practices. Did your parents beat you? When they beat you how did you feel. At the time did you feel you deserved the pain and scares from the beating?

      People always want to justify their ill gotten behaviour from quotation’s in the bible. Everything written in the bible is not true, or right and exact for these times we live today.

      My question to Creflo… What was you really angry about? He is a very articulate well spoken individual. I do not believe he ran out of words to convince his daughter to follow his parental reasonning. So what she was tired of listening to him and went in another room to cry. Thats what children do when they cannot get their way.

      Also children cry when they are facing reasonning over foolishness, or what is called a teaching moment. Children grow into muture adults and remember those moments where they moved forward towards adulthood.

      Creflo daughter has been rob of one of those moments. Scard for life from her father violent actions and rersponse to her childished behaviour.

      • Discipline is not a generational curse.

        He was probably angered by his daughter playing the harlot instead of attending to her duties. Any good Father will be outraged if his daughter acts like a whore. He was wise to direct his judgement at the disobedient girl and not the men who took advantage of her wanton behavior.

    • It says that he didn’t allow her to go to the party because of bad grades not because it was late at night. Meaning she might have been allowed to go if her grades had been better. So does this mean that Creflo would have been considered a bad parent in your if he had let her go to the midnight party?

      And FYI kids are people and they all react differently to abuse. You most definitely sound like an abuser. I’ve worked with at risk youth, juvenile incarcerated teens, battered women, and currently the elderly. There is most definitely a cycle. Would you wager a guess on how many children come to visit their elderly parents? I’d say less than %10. And i’m talking about on a semi-annual/yearly basis. I saw one lady on her deathbed didn’t know she had 3 kids because I had only ever seen one. In talking to the daughter, she told me simply that mother was “hard to love”. I later got reports from nurses of this old woman cursing her children out like a sailor and the children doing the same in return. Teaching a child to obey does not teach them to love, nor does it teach them to respect. If your message as a parent is to have complete submission while in your house and your presence that child will remove themselves from your presence and your house. They may do this by adopting a faux family (gang, group of delinquents), they may do this by going out and starting an actual family (getting pregnant, getting someone pregnant), they may even be smart about it and become successful members of society and never need you or talk to you again – and guess what? They don’t have to because they’re not under your roof anymore.

      Me and my sisters were beaten as children. I’ve since talked to my father and forgave him but there were a number of years where he didn’t exist to me. For my sisters they still haven’t forgiven him completely and have little to do with him. He wonders why no one calls or checks on him or visits. It’s because the whole time he was concerned with “respect” and obedience, he forgot to show love. Tbell when you’re old and frail and can’t control your kids actions you might come to regret how you’ve treated your children (or you may not depending on the type of person you are) but by then it will have been too late. The role reverses, one day when you can’t work you will be under their roof, you will be eating their food and spending their money. When you’re incontinent and falling into senility hope they don’t beat you for messing yourself or neglect you for forgetting to take your meds.

      • I don’t usually comment much, but on this I just had to say something. Both of my parents are American immigrants from Africa. They were both loving, clothed us, fed us, gave us a good education, but from time to time would say really mean things, or beat my sister and I when we didn’t do what they thought we were supposed to do. They called it “discipline” too. I remember there was an incident where I told my father that my best male friend came out to me as a homosexual and I decided to accept him for what he was and continued being friends with him. My father was so angry that he told me he hoped my friend would make a move on me after being with a man and give me AIDS. On several occasions I was beaten with shoes, electric cords, switches, belts and the like. Every time that happened to me I felt I was worthless, empty and not worthy of anyone’s attention or love. It showed me that people who say they love you the most, can also hurt you physically and emotionally. I prayed that even though I was a kid that had no authority or power that justice would be served from the Lord and my parents would be punished for what they did. Fast-forward some odd years later and I’m a grown woman living on my own, and my father gets a sickness that leaves him paralyzed and bed ridden. He is pitiful shell of the man he used to be, and even though I pity him and visit him sometimes, I still feel that pang of pleasure that God answered my prayers and paid him back for all the things he did to bully me. I know revenge is not right, but for all the people who say that “discipline” serves its purpose, I never forgot any of that pain. I love my father, but all the good he has done for me will never make me forget how he made me feel when he beat me. Never.

  119. You spoke very eloquently and made a LOT of sense. First of all…me personally? I’d be inclined to believe if BOTH daughters testified to the same thing that they in all likelihood have testimonies that are based on truth. I don’t agree with physically attacking your child simply because she was being emotional because you told her…she couldn’t attend a party because of her grades. You spoke…let her cry. Now if she decided she was going anyways? She’d have a choice to make…either follow my rules…or find somewhere to stay. If Creflo Dollar or ANY man for that matter…INCLUDING ME…choked, punched or kicked or anything like that…his DAUGHTER of 15 years of age he crossed the line in my opinion. It’s not only UNNECESSARY…it’s CRIMINAL.
    daMonstah,CEO of daBlogPound,Inc.on Facebook

  120. I agree with most of what she is saying and I would even add that her pastor, in my eyes, is unwise to give his support to Creflo Dollar, without knowing all of the facts. But in the same breath (full disclosure, I’m not a fan of Creflo Dollar or prosperity theology/minstries, in fact I find it an afront to the teachings of Chirst, but that being said), I must say that no one, besides those young ladies and their father know all of the facts. However, her point about the black church, still remains valid. We got issues. And when I say the black church, I don’t mean all black churches. Just because the people in the pews are mostly black, does not make it a “Black Church”. When I say Black Church, I mean the largely independent black churches that are an island unto themselves, and often support a culture purely driven by the personality and sole intepretation of the Bible of the Lead Pastor. In most cases, I don’t think it’s a problem with their teaching the but construct is very open to foundational cracks. The Trustees are suppose to prevent that from happening, but in many of our “Mega Churches” the pastor is so powerful that the trustees merely serve in the pretext of oversight. A lot like university trustees and Head Coaches of major college football programs if you think about it. Regardless, absolute power in a single hand too often the death of reason.

  121. If you don’t get any of the points she raised, you are the one she is talking about. When I watched the few seconds of his return to the pulpit, my heart sank at the applause and my mind wondered why no one walked out on him for not taking responsibility. It’s appalling and alarming that masses have fallen prey to this vile form of leadership and worse allow their children to fall with them.

    The police reports and the fact that T. Martin was dead was enough to incite violence in some. Here we have a police report and sworn statement from a legal aged witness and his partial truth story that he used his shoe. But, you say, Oh wait for the facts! WAKE THE HECK UP! Stop Beating and Verbally abusing your children! You are only teaching them how to do the same thing!

    I promise you G-d is shaking his head at you for not using your head!!! Pull it out of the sand and Free your dang gum MIND! Now, when the facts do come out and the very harsh family court of Atlanta lays down the law…we will see what you have to say then.

    Elder Phyllis DeGraphenreed

  122. Thank you for this, and I have to say you’re extremely brave to post it. I’m white, and I grew up in white churches, and I know what happens when you disagree with the church on anything (and especially when you disagree with the pastor on something). All the brotherly love and communion flies right out the window. Here in the South, the pastor is never wrong, and it’s a scary thing to step out of line and see where you really stand.

    I have seen women counseled to stay with abusive husbands because “God” wouldn’t approve of their divorce. I have seen parents encouraged to spank their children at the slightest provocation because “sparing the rod spoils the child.” I have seen people excommunicated because they dared to privately question a decision made by a pastor. The church is broken, and it needs more people like you to stand up and declare that a broken church is not good enough if it’s going to be mended. If I had known people like you ten years ago, it would have made a world of difference.

    • I agree 100%. I am not black, but I’ve seen this in so many other churches as well. I grew up in both Spanish speaking and southern white churches, and it’s basically the same there. Something must be done. The situation with how much earthly and spiritual authority is given to individual pastors reminds me of what I see in the Bible being done by the pharisees. It is not right and it is causing so many truths to be twisted and manipulated, most often at the expense of women and youth.
      I’ve recently found a church that I think really mirrors the way Christ intended the disciples to lead. It has one pastor, but he is held accountable by elders and all of the congregants. It is so refreshing to see people in authority who espouses the truly Biblical leadership qualities such as compassion, humility, and respect. Creflo should take some notes.

  123. I labored over whether I should post a comment about this particular subject matter. I don’t have children and I’m not apart of any organized religion. My biggest concern about the church community as a whole is how easy individuals can submit their will to another all in the name of God. Man has persuaded their congregants towards very ungodly acts. Man posses the power to coerce, cajole and persuade people into believing whatever is necessary for personal greed and power. I see the church community as a cult in many ways. The congregation generally speaking relish for a man that stands over the pulpit as if he’s the deity that they are worshipping. They easily forget that he is just mere man, always capable of error or fault. Subsequently, I think it sad only because Dollar is a public figure that the mere idea of chastising or disciplining your child can result to so much public scrutiny. It would be even more shameful if he’s using his power in the name of Jesus to shield his guilt. I much rather wait for all the facts to be revealed before I make my opinion about this matter. However, I continue to carefully observe how persuasion when used in the name of God can cause discord and hate of others. The church sanctifies this behavior and it’s even more evident in the Black church. I refuse to be apart of any organization that encourages, sanctions or purport the hatred of any group of people for any reason. This is not the church’s job or obligation. The heart and mind revised is necessary.

  124. Pingback: When the Church Fails Its Women: 7 Truths We Need to Tell About Creflo Dollar, Black Daughters and Violence | BlackSenseUS

  125. Personly, it’s sad to hear a story like this because I look up to the man that preaches the words of God. I was not there and my husband and raised 3 children, who now is 25, 23 and 18 years of age. Our daughter who is now 25 gave us the most trouble, with that mouth! I feel that she was doing more crying, I believe that her father who loves her with all his heart may have hit her with the shoe, because of her mouth because she was upset about not being able to go to that party. I see no photos of her being beat. I’m totally against men hitting women, children etc, but I’m not against disobeying children. My daughter said hurtful words that will stick with us forever, just because she could not have her way as a teenager, today she is bright young lady who thank me for her upbringing . I leave this with you, pray for that family, because if u don’t have children yet keep living and you will see what a family have to go thur raising teenage boys and girls. God bless you!

    • I have children, two daughters. One is 30, the other is 27. Yes, I spanked them, when they were very young, and only for something that was life threatening. (She dashed out into a parking lot.) Hitting a teenager, no matter how bad her mouth is, does no good. It doesn’t make them “Hate” you any less, nor does it teach them anything. All teenagers have mouths on them. All teenagers say hurtful things. I got to the point where, if my daughter didn’t swear she hated me at least twice a week, I was missing something. Saying hurtful things is not a reason to hit a girl with a shoe. It’s not a reason for abuse. What he was doing was not discipline, it was a grown man taking his anger and frustration on someone who can’t defend herself. I don’t know if he punched her or kicked her. I believe the story that both she and her sister told. What I will say is this. If a grown man has lost control to such an extent, that he considers hitting a child with a shoe as “discipline,” then he has lost control of his life, and he needs help. There is no excusing what he did.

  126. The article feels biased, prejudiced and a premature quick to judgment!!!!!!!!! This is not standing up for women, instead it seems or appears or leaves me with the impression that you wanted some condemnation simply based on the arrests and news stories. When this did not happen you couch in terms of not supporting women or encouraging domestic violence.

    However, it is the negative press, unwarranted and premature attacks that caused his members to show their support. If I belong to your church and I follow you. I will follow you until I decide otherwise and will support and presume the positive until the negative is proven. “Innocent until proven guilty, is more than just a phrase.”

    Police, the courts, social workers, political and social scientist all say that we need more black men to be involved. He is involved and providing support, guidance and discipline. Even if he went overboard that is not a reason to condemn him in other facets of his life.

    The fact is we do not know exactly what happened. It is a private family matter and let it stay there.

    Regarding your approach to domestic violence, you describe the problem and its causes or how its perpetuated as if it is only Large Adult Black men hurting little girls and it is our duty to stand up immediately or dire things will happen. When in fact most domestic violence is women against their partners and women against their children. The children are both male and female.

    Her article did not mention boys, or young men or teenage boys at all. Your article pits men against women. This was not that kind of issue. And I am offended that you couched it in those terms.

    ken goins
    3144439915

    • Wow… NO, Mr. Goins — It’s not that “dire things will happen,” as you put it. THEY ALREADY HAVE BEEN HAPPENING, and ARE HAPPENING.

      Elsewhere, one day soon, I will share the story my late GRANDFATHER told me years ago about WHY, AS AN ADULT, HE CHOSE NOT TO ATTEND ANYBODY’S CHURCH.

      He was a MAN, and he told me this.

      It is many, many men — not all — who pit themselves against women, other men, children, and against decent, peace-seeking society.

    • Wow… NO, Mr. Goins — It’s not that “dire things will happen,” as you put it. THEY ALREADY HAVE BEEN HAPPENING, and ARE HAPPENING.

      Elsewhere, one day soon, I will share the story my late GRANDFATHER told me years ago about WHY, AS AN ADULT, HE CHOSE NOT TO ATTEND ANYBODY’S CHURCH.

      He was a MAN, and he told me this.

      The global fact is, many, many, many men — not all — pit themselves against women, other men, children, and against decent, peace-seeking society. Address THAT. That’s what this is about.

  127. What boring hypocrisy. Statistically it is 6 times more likely for a Black woman to whoop her son or her daughter, which is perfectly fine within the Black community. However you dont ever hear anything about this from crunkfeminists or about domestic violence. Whats good for the goose, is good for the gander. There is one thing we have to get straight first: If it is ok for a Black mother to beat her daughter or her son, we shouldnt complain about a Black father doing the same, because it simply sounds like a big waste of stupid and ridiculous double standard. Not taking this article and its author seriously. Nia

    • Reading is soooo fundamental. I spent a huge part of this article taking issue with the Black mothers who defended Creflo and called out another Black mother who promised to treat her fifteen year old in this way.

      So I’m not taking this author and this (attempt at) critique seriously.

  128. Had to comment as well. I am so disturbed by the people defending what this man did to his own child. The police report and eye witness account all indicate she was in the kitchen crying and he came in an attacked her – period. His need for “respect” is so strong that this girl wasn’t even allowed to simply let her emotions out, but he wants to not only control her actions, but control her mind and emotions as well.
    This same man that defended a pedophile by telling Eddie Long’s congregants he only had a “wreck” and they should stay and support him won’t even let his own child have a good cry without hitting her? So sleeping with young boys is simply a “wreck” that only god will judge while a young girl being disappointed in not going to a party deserves a beating – really?
    Creflo has an anger issue which can be seen in this Youtube clip where he is talking about wishing his could shoot non-tithers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM3BWAmlXis. This is a man with a problem, period. So people who don’t tithe should be shot, teenage girls aren’t allowed to have a good cry, but a man that abuses children should be “prayed for” and listened to and sat under – really? Here is the video of him saying Long simply had a “wreck” and his folks should go back to him because he was still anointed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TJxedLeFP4
    For all the parents talking about “respect” – you cannot make someone respect you. You can make them obey you, but beating your children doesn’t make them respect you. You may “think” you are getting respect, but they are simply bidding their time. Sometimes they don’t respect you because the see how YOU live. They see you beating them for their issues while you simply ask for prayer or say “Jesus forgave me”. Really, your sin is covered by the blood, but not theirs? You can go to the throne and ask for mercy and grace while your child has to be hit with a shoe? Really? Is that the kind of god you serve?
    And for the “survivors” out there thinking you turned out “okay”. Guess what – I was the victim of rape in yet I am not successful, happily married, and a mother to wonderful children. Does that mean that rape is okay because I turned out “okay”? No, it makes me a survivor, like many of your children that simply survived your abuse inspite of what you did – not because of it.
    I have been inside prisons and detention centers all over the country and I have never met one person within those walls that didn’t get beat. In fact, most were the victims of horrible abuse. It is a fallacy that not knocking children in the head will lead them to be criminals. Some of the worst criminals in history – including Adolf Hitler, were horrible beaten and “disciplined” as children.
    And beating a child doesn’t keep them out of hell. Having a relationship with God is a personal decision that is made by that individual alone. To think you have a hand in the work of salvation is the most arrogant thing i have ever heard. You cannot save a ant or a fly, let alone a person. And telling someone god “loves” them so much he wants you to beat them into a pulp isn’t a real big salvation message.
    You all love bringing up scriptures with no meaning of their words. Did you do a study on the Hebrew word used for “rod” in Proverbs and what it means? Did you do a historical study to see how discipline was administered during the time in which that scripture was written? Nope, you just picked up your shoe and declared you were doing god’s work and you haven’t studied one bit and it shows.

    • Man, why did I look at that clip you posted. I am utterly disgusted. I didn’t grow up in the church and when I’ve been I had never seen no mess like that. NEVER heard a preacher say that I would like to shoot you if you don’t give me money – sounds like a damned bank robbery. God does not send out beggars and when Jesus sent his disciples out to spread the word he told them not to collect offerings. Salvation is FREE. Ughhh running through money like a damned fool. It bothers me so much I can’t express it. Rdkdghghgooo!!

  129. …stop and think for a moment….Creflo Dollar did not just start thrashing his children…they have been used to this abuse and decided enough was enough, and took it to the public for sympathy….His demeanor has always been viewed by me as a Money- grubbing tyrant…don’t sleep on the Mrs. either…she got a few licks in over the years also…it shows.

    • Thank you! It’s that time, all done in the dark shall come to light for all to see and judge not!

  130. Pingback: Violence-Free Parenting (NOT an Oxymoron) « inthisplaceweflesh

  131. My only question at this time is where was the mother when all of this went down? Perhaps there may have been a better outcome if the mother handled her own daughter.

  132. I’m all in favor of black women being treated with respect, and violence is definitely not the answer when there are disagreements in relationships. However, in Pastor Creflo Dollar’s situation, there are two facts that have to taken into consideration when looking at this specific situation.

  133. First of all, I am a black christian woman! Pastors are just men, who are called to preach God’s word! If he is found guilty in God’s eye, he will be guilty period. But just because one pastor made such a detrimental mistake doesn’t mean to categorize all African-American Churches as one! Your statement…”And it is precisely because of the Black Church’s continued willingness to advocate problematic, violent, hierarchical stances against women and gay people that I continue to struggle”. All churches do not support this way of thinking! But if you are a bible reading it doesn’t promote violence, but it does tell us what our relationship with God should consist of, how to live a christian life to please God, and to apply our moral standards. But what is your main goal of this article? Pastors and the church? African-America men and Violence Against African-Women? “If Black fathers set the moral tone for how men will treat their (presumably hetero) daughters, then Black folks cannot continue to insist that a father’s punches thrown in anger are wholly distinct from a partner’s punches thrown in anger.” Who says black men are not setting a good moral for their daughters? Black Christianity? Child Abuse? Black Feminist? “But to them I say, Jesus was a feminist. In my feminist communities, being a Christian often makes me suspect.” There is so many topics that are being discussed that need more facts, professional research and statistics to back your opinions up, rather then the opinions of your mother! “Black women have to become as serious about demanding that our churches are spaces where we can tell our testimonies about the violence done to us and be believed”. The church should be a place where you can freely and openly express critical issues such as these! “Yet, I witnessed Black women coming out in full support of the “man of God” in droves because…” Sister you are stereotyping your own sisters! Christian or not.., Pastor or not…Deacon or not…If you abuse a child, it’s wrong, if you molest a child, it’s wrong! I don’t care what church you go to; everyone agrees to disagree! Heck that is life even outside the church! But it doesn’t change my stand-point of my relationship with God, or his word! And if you strongly have disagreements and God leads you to another church! So be it! But as a Christian this leaves a bad taste in my mouth! Because if I was a non-believer I would also agree with everything you are saying because it is putting down churches as a whole! You also give me the feeling that maybe you are considering leaving the church period, due to a change in your beliefs! On the other hand, Not knocking you for discussing these issues if it brings you closer to Christ and a better understanding of him! God Bless you sister!

    • Who says this article can have only one goal? I used an incident in a well-known church to bring light to a larger conversation that needs to happen in THE church as a whole. Where’s the crime in that?

      I’ve been to plenty of Black churches, and because of my being in the Atlanta megachurch scene, I’ve had the opportunity to hear many, many of the most prominent ministers in the faith right now preach. By and large, the church consistently promotes theological teachings that are detrimental towards women and violent towards gay and lesbian people. Both my personal relationship with God and my many years of educational training tell me that something is wrong with that.

      And where did I say that Black men were setting a bad moral standard? Re-read the argument. I said that if the Black church wants to set Black men up as the moral heads of families, then they have to be consistent throughout. You can’t say that a woman’s relationship with her father determines what her relationship to other men will be like and then make an exception for hitting and violence. Logic doesn’t work that way.

      Further, based on your logic, because I have a critique, I must be a non-believer. That is absurd. It is because I love the church and the Lord (not necessarily in that order), because I believe in the power of our faith communities to be real spaces of transformation and healing, because I believe in the freedom and grace that Christ died and rose for, that I have shared my thoughts with you. And it is precisely this idea that you seem to have that one cannot have a voice or difference of opinion in the place where you worship (and give a good amount of your time and money, I might add) that troubles me. I will not check my brain, my training, or my convictions at the door. I can read my own Bible, and I have my own relationship with God. That means that what the Pastor says is in fact not the final word in how I live my life. And because I recognize that the Pastor is just a man, I therefore have the right to disagree with the theology he espouses. But because Jesus took great care to establish the church, I work from the assumption that it is a significant institution and that as a person of faith, it should be a part of my life. I believe in being in community with “the saints.” But I refuse to be in community if I can’t bring my whole self freely, and if a preacher is standing in the pulpit preaching stuff detrimental to women, then that violates every notion of safe community ethics I can think of.

      Oh yes. AND. I’m gonna overlook that barb toward my mother. I brought her into the discussion in the blog comments because another commenter asked if I was a parent (and since I’m not, I made sure to talk this post over with my mother who has some different views on corporal punishment than I do and also because she is a pastor’s wife/first lady of a church). But you should step real lightly on anything concerning her, if you wanna continue to comment here freely.

  134. Amen sister, where her momma? Also, I no teenaged girls now molested mothers don’t believe them or try and pretend them don’t know.

  135. You are a powerful writer and a caring spirit, who seems as though you have lived through a lot. I agree with your voice regarding the need to expose every area of life on this matter and speak of how it is in the bible. 2 It is a truth that must be told, and you express it so eloquantly and can back it with theology. I must caution, as you go forth in your ministry to allow the voices of those who cry out in the wildress to be heard, it is important to hear what thus saidth the Lord, because the devil is a liar. We must yeild to God and not to man, despite what the community says. God speaks of fornication, orgies, homosexuality, drunkedness, etc. 1 Corinthians 6:9-12… God says that we will not inherit the kingdom of God doing so. But! Such were some of you, but we were washed in the blood of the Lamb. When we know better, we must be obedient to the Lord. It is in our obedience to God and not to man.

  136. Wow! You have put into words what I have been all along concerning this issue. Clearly, you have struck a chord, since the reactions have been visceral and non-introspective. If we truly understood feminist thought this whole incident would give us pause.

    As to you my dear sister, you write and think prophetically.

  137. I hate when people make there own commentary on things they nothing about? Where you in the house? Were you the responding officer? The answer is no! Therefore, sit back and pray, not just for the Dollar family, but families across America! By the way, is your family perfect? I didn’t think so! I will pray for your family too in the process of praying for this family! Be bless my sister!

    • Please don’t pray for my family. I pray for my own family, and to use Christian parlance, my father covers each of us in prayer everyday. So please keep your prayers, which are clearly based on ideas that are radically opposed to mine, to yourself. Thanks.

  138. Probably one of the most well-written articles I’ve read in a long time that addresses Black women’s unique experiences as both a Christian and feminist. I love that you addressed the obvious and subtle inequities inherent within the Black church and like you, find myself struggling with imparting this knowledge to my fellow scholar-activists, Christians, womanists and feminists. We wonder why more Black women don’t talk about being raped, sexually abused, physically/emotionally abused–these two PKs can’t even receive support from other women when telling their truth. Why do we (Black women) blindly accept the word of a man over another woman??!! Something is wrong here.I applaud this work and will definitely share with all of my networks. What you have articulated gets at the heart of why so many Black women stay in situations that leave them empty, abused and contributes to their low self-esteem. I have no doubt these are the roots to Black women (generalizing here) taking care of their families, churches and communities, at the cost of our health and joy. We don’t talk about joy in the Black church (another generalization). A strengths-based perspective is needed in theology. Rather, we use the parables and scriptures to create fear instead of truly instilling hope. It warms my heart to see someone else who clearly had read the Bible and understands its socio-historical context and relevance in our lives today. Despite some of the demeaning comments on this blog–I chalk it up to how its easier to chastise horizontally than vertically when it comes to issues of power and domination, but I digress–keep doing what you’re doing and know that your words may inspire some people to read and study their Bible rather than take their pastors’ (male or female because women can further patriarchy as well) interpretation as the truth. Just as God spoke to those then, we can hear the Creator’s voice today with guidance from the Bible. The sad part in all of this are the two young women whose father has clearly harmed them in some way. Even if this situation wasn’t a fire, there is definitely smoke somewhere. And, that, in itself is the real tragedy.

  139. Some of the comments on this post are simply heartbreaking. Please read the police report. It is never okay to choke a child. Never.

  140. Totally disagree…when you grow older, you’d know what it means raising kids. I was whipped as a child, turned out excellently well and love my parents till eternity…when my children misbehave, I spank them and for the record, they are the top achievers in their classes and sports…even God, admonishes to not spare the rod as long as it is used as an instrument of discipline…everyone here is only voicing their views which is marred by background and upbringing (myself included) therefore, let us leave the Dollars and do what Christ admonishes, pray for the family. If Creflo is wrong, God will judge him. That is not up to us to do.

    As a young child of 15, I remember vividly standing up to my Dad for not allowing me to have a birthday party. I don’t know what came over me but I was very insulting and provocating, the poor man had no choice but to whip me, the more he did, I more I screamed from the top of my lungs that is all he can do, he cannot kill me – this was in a country where no 999/911 exist. If we had active and supportive police force, I would have gone to them as report my Dad abused me domestically…I left the house in anger and slept on the street to prove a point (or so I thought)…anyway, by the following day, I came to me senses and retraced my steps home and begged for their pardon. 16yrs later, I still cannot fathom what came on me that day to have raised my voice to my Dad – it is an abomination and utterly disrespectful for any child to do that – moreso, a Christian, African, heritage. If your parents are wrong, there are ways to resolve the issue – elders to escalate the matters to,etc but 2 wrongs can never be right and I am against any society or activist group that allows or encourgaes children to be insolent to their parents..

    The whole incidence will carry more weight assuming the daughter is older and reflects on her childhood. If she deems this act of her father’s wrong [when she herself knows what it is to raise a child], then that’s a different ballgame. But, I disagree for anyone to make assertions that Creflo is evil/wrong based on the above bony/speculative facts…

    I know my suggestion is not asked but I will provide it nonetheless (this is social media after all, you have also given suggestions in your post): Go back to church. Allow the Holy Spirit to answer questions no man can answer. Allow the Holy Spirit to perfect his work in you. Remember, the scripture says, “Surely offences must come…” My dear, refuse to allow the devil deter you from staying steadfast in God.

    Peace.

    • Wow, my heart breaks for you. You speak of children the way slave owners spoke of slaves.Leaving the church was the best decision I made in my life. I found truth – everything from corrupted scriptures to corrupted belief permeate the “church”. Do you have ANY idea how much the English bible differs from the oldest scriptures uncovered, commonly called the Dead Sea Scrolls? Do you have any idea how much your English bible differs from even the Jewish text on which it is based on? Do you have any idea how many verses were added, even from the Greek text of the so called New Testament that were never there – but simply added by bishops that attended the Nicene Council allowed to exist from Constantine. Do you have ANY idea how much Constantine changed the text to go in line with his pagan sun god worship?
      You are still defending Creflo – a man who said he wished he could shoot people that didn’t tithe to him? You still defend a man that defended a pedophile?
      You think children should have no voice and be required to simply take abuse from parents and elders. Sandusky was allowed to rape young black boys for YEARS because he was in a position of power and they were simply children – so it was okay.
      You need to run out of the church as fast as you can and get to the truth. The truth about things like the tithe – which was NEVER money and was always food and was only for the poor and the Levites. Since there are no longer Levites, the tithe (which was based off of an increase of crop gain and paid once ever three years) was specifically to help feed the poor, the widow, and the fatherless, never to enrich a man who claims spiritual immunity from everything he does wrong.
      You worship a man you call “Jesus” when that name didn’t even exist until the late 1500′s. The letter “J” wasn’t even invented until the 1560′s and wasn’t widely used until the 1600′s. Look at the 1611 King James Version of the Bible and he was called “Iesus” at that time. However, even that name never existed in 33 CE when Yashuwa was around. Yes, I’m sure you never heard that name before, your “Christian” leader didn’t reveal it to you. They are too busy having you celebrate Christmas – a pagan holiday based on sun god worship based on the supposed birth of both the sun god Mithra as well as the supposed sun of the sun good Tammuz, Easter – another pagan holiday based on sun god worship celebrating the supposed mother of the sun god Eastre who supposedly was born from the moon and came down to earth in an egg that landed in the Euphrates river. That is why Easter Sunday always follows the vernal equinox – the way it always did in its pagan origins. Oh, I’m sure your Christian pastor didn’t tell you that – he is making too much money on you by having you follow pagan sun god practices while you call on the name of the “Lord”. Oh yea, the name “Lord” – which means master but is also known as Baal – yea, that Baal. See, that is another thing that was changed in your English bible. The true name of god is YHWH and you can look it up – here is a start: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YHWH, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal. And no, it isn’t just on wikipedia, but that is a neutral place to start.
      So yes, you came here demanding the author of this piece “go back to church” or “stay in church” when you haven’t done research yourself.Even the word “church” is a joke that was never utilized in any Hebrew or Greek text. – it is a word derived from pagan worship because the druids used to worship in temples they made in the form of circles called kirke which means circles. The catholics, who adopted many pagan customs started the use of the term that continues throughout Christianity today. So, instead of praying to a god you don’t even know maybe you should spend some time studying for yourself and stop taking the word of people who get rich by lying to you.
      Since you love the Bible – why did you not consider Matthew 18:22 – 35. Most adults have far more “sin” than their children. However, they want to punish greatly their children and think they will be forgiven? Ain’t going to happen. Beat your children all you want to, but remember what happens to folks that feel the need to punish to the fullest extent an aught against them while trying themselves to run the mercy seat.
      But please stop thinking those not in “church” don’t know God, don’t have a relationship with Him, don’t study, and don’t know how to live their lives. Your cries of come back to the church are akin to a slave still on the plantation trying to persuade those that have escaped to come back to the good life. Sorry, too many have tasted freedom and see they were born and raised in a den of lies being ruled by wolves. You don’t even realize the chains that are around you and haven’t taken the time to study just what you are following. Yes, there is a God, and no – He doesn’t want you to choke children and beat them with shoes. Even the “stoning” scripture put so many parameters around physical abuse that there is not one recorded incident of a child being stoned to death in ancient Hebrew times – before they were taken over by Talmudic rule. Even the word child used in the Proverbs verses in Hebrew is “na’ar” which was a YOUNG MAN. It never referred to a woman of ANY AGE, never referred to a child younger than five years old, and was most commonly used to refer to a young man between the ages of 18 – 24. The talk of “sparing the rod” referred to protective authority and when it came to beating a “na’ar” – well that can’t really be the proper English word because a specific punishment was for anyone that killed a “na’ar” by hitting them with a rod! So to say if you “beat” someone with a rod they won’t die can’t be right. So yea, maybe you should spend less time in church and more time studying on your own.You might just stop calling on Ba’al and start calling on YHWH.
      I know you won’t believe me, too busy doing the “Dollar dance”, making up things that aren’t in the bible, and not for a second questioning even those things in the bible that make no sense to see if maybe, just maybe someone got it wrong. Guess what, often times they did! Not one full letter from any book in the New Testament has ever been found, none of them have been found in Hebrew or Aramaic (most Jews at the time didn’t speak Greek) and of those portions of letters found there have been recorded over 300,000 differences between letters – when there are only just over 150,000 words in the NT. The name of YHWH was replaced 8,000 times in the Old Testament with “lord” for no reason other than people wanted to do it. Silly things like the nine times your English bible (KJV) mentions “unicorn” is NO WHERE in any Jewish tanakh (and no, I am NOT Jewish) or the Dead Sea Scrolls (Num 23:22, Deut 33:17, Psalm 37:4 to name a few). Guess where we find unicorns – in pagan deities! So no, not a lot of folks beating down doors to come back and be told about the wonderful little unicorns or beating children half to death.But just like you drive the fear of god into your children for questioning “you”, your pastor has driven the fear of god into you for questioning him or your bible. So, you sit in ignorance, calm your mind, and tell yourself that maybe unicorns exist after all. Unicorns DON’T exist and questioning your bible won’t drive you away from God – it might just help you find Him it. If nothing else, you can keep a few dollars in your pocket and stop buying mansions for other folks and you can maybe use that money to do something nice – like feeding the poor. You know, the stuff us “un-churched” folks do. It will also give you confidence in allowing your children to question crazy, even if that crazy comes from you. Unless you want your child also sitting down believing in the pretty unicorns right next to you.

      • Of all this that you have written that you and others believe to be truth. Why not take it to the jails and prisons and teach our young men and women so they will be free? How many jails and prisons have you visited so far? I’ve been to Africa, Asia and Europe and have the passport stamps and visas to prove it so I know what the real truth is and not what some want you to believe by reading books here in America.

    • I too will always love, honor and appreciate my wonderful godly parents. I too was beaten by them. I too turned out to be a reasonably well-adjusted adult – even though I was abused by my parents when they beat me. Beating me was the least effective and least creative form of discipline I have ever received. This is an example of how good people fail to do what is best. Beating kids is behavior we learned from the master and his whip. We often use his same language and procedures in moderated form. It is a vestige of our slave experience that conjoins to our oppressed pedagogy and deludes us into thinking such abuse is actually good for us. Like the other torturous emblems of our horrid slave experience, we need to surrender this to fires of progress.

  141. I don’t see this as a gender issue so much as a parenting issue (what is and is not an appropriate means and age for a parent to discipline their child). Clearly, choking your child is wrong, but I’m not entirely convinced he would not have done the same if she were a son.

    • I think the point was more that, if you “discipline” a son like this, you will teach him that he can do the same in the future, because why else would you be doing it to him, whereas, if you “discipline” a daughter like this, you will teach her that she can expect the same for the rest of her life. In neither case is it right, in neither case is it healthy, but in EITHER case it is reinforcing the pattern of violence toward women and children.

  142. Pingback: When the Black Church Fails Women |

  143. Crunk – keep your eyes open and keep thinking clearly. If you do, I think you are going to find that

    1. the church is an instrument of control
    2. it is male dominated and women are second-class citizens in it
    3. the church’s teachings are based on Dark Ages mythology that will not stand up to the thoughtful scrutiny that you are beginning to trust more and more

    Walk out of the church sister, and don’t look back. Welcome to the warmth and the light of rational thinking and human respect.

  144. Pingback: When the Black Church Fails Women | TheJusticeTeam

  145. The Black female is the backbone of the “Black church,” and the Black Female is the mother of every Black person in the church, no one in the church should condone the abuse of her children, period. What I was once for, I am now totally against. Do not ever hit your child. Of all the people on this planet, we should know better. There is one thing if nothing else, and a common thread in our history, is being beaten and trodden down. We are the sum of what we know and what we know is what we have been taught. Do not teach your child violence.

  146. I can’t stand this man; he and his Con(servative) Christian ilk subjugate womben in a lot of disgusting ways that need to be highlighted. From the prosperity pimping to the lack of respect of womben’s intellect and rights to hold positions within the church.

    This, however, is NOT one of those circumstances.

    First of all, this is a CHILD. Not a grown womban. Saying that because he hit her that means he would hit his wife is like saying because my mother whooped me that she was beating on my father too (which, obviously, isn’t true).

    Secondly, stop saying she got the sh*t beat out of her; she had SUPERFICIAL scratches on her neck. We saw the picture of Rihanna. SHE got the sh*t beaten out of her. This child was at a police station and when they took pictures all they saw were SUPERFICIAL SCRATCHES. I’m sure they examined the rest of her and didn’t find anything else. If a grown man kicks, punches, chokes and throws a child down to the floor, there are going to be more than paper cuts on her neck. C’mon now…y’all sound like George Zimmerman when he claimed Trayvon beat him senseless when he was walking around looking perfectly unharmed.

    Third, I don’t know what kind of Black Christian family you come from, but there is no, “I don’t want to talk to you,” in most of them. I’m a 27 year old womban with no children and that even made MY blood boil. Yes, the root word of “discipline” is “disciple,” which means to train…and this is the way he is training her. A child does not have the right to say, “I don’t want to talk to you,” and dismiss their parents as if they are equals…unless we’re talking about some kid who is paying all the bills and holding down all the responsibilities in the household (so…maybe a young Macauley Culkin).

    You all can talk about all this gentle raising of our children if you’d like. That is why I have to get on the bus and be barraged with the foulest language every spoken by these teenagers…because you have parents who either don’t discipline their children or don’t know effective ways to do so. I wasn’t the type of child who a stern “talking to” would’ve worked for. My sister, who was, got whoopings less often and that worked as discipline for HER. I shiver to think of what I would’ve become if my mother had let me dismiss her when I’d wanted to. *shiver* Parents should know what discipline methods work for which kids.

    At the end of the day, he did not beat the sh*t out of this CHILD (not womban) and saying he did belittles womben and children who are truly being abused. If she and her sister feel so threatened by his behavior, the older sister is now old enough to find her own place and they can place the younger one with a family that is more suitable to her tastes.

    I’d like for us to stop using every little thing we find out about someone we don’t like as a way to discredit them ESPECIALLY when there are plenty of other examples we can use. Let’s talk about him calling Eddie Long’s sexual abuse of children “a wreck” and telling his congregants to go back to a pedophile’s church. Him whooping an insolent child and us harping on it is a waste of time and does no good to combat the truly negative things he DOES do.

    • She and her sister said he slapped, choked, and punched her. Even if you didn’t believe the 15 year old, her sister has no reason to lie, especially if she is still living there over the age of 18 and her parents are putting a roof over her head.

      Second, we disagree about a child’s right to walk away and disengage. And even if you don’t think she has the right to walk away, you don’t have the right to hit her for not talking to you. If you think you do, then I think you believe in shit that is abusive.

      I didn’t say anything about gentle parenting. I believe in setting strict boundaries, taking away privileges, etc. I don’t believe in beating the shit (Yep, I said it again.) out of your kids for disrespectful behavior.

      At the end of the day, I choose to believe his two daughters. You can choose not to. We’ll both have to live with the implications of our choices.

  147. But suppose his daughter does not end up pregnant, a single parent, bitter and angry and single, divorced multiple times, or does not develop a STD, or a million other alternatives that may be worse (in the future) than not going to
    the party her daddy did not want her to go to late at night at age 15? Did he tell her no? Then she would not accept the no that night or many other nights before? What if honor your father and mother so your days will be long up on the earth is actually her destiny which is hidden in all of that. And any bitter woman who wants to throw the Bible out the window, run and get it and live it.

    • Plenty of people are beaten and turn out very badly. Plenty of people are NOT beaten and turn out good. BEATING a child does not help them. The daughter was crying about not being able to go to a party. Telling her she could not go was a good parenting decision. Beating her and choking her because she didn’t want to talk about how upset she was was NOT a good parenting decision. The abuse heaped upon her is going to make her MORE likely to act out in the future, not less.

  148. To me he is another bishop eddie long full of shit and for the wife to side with her husband is bullshit their daughter will never forgive them for ehat he

  149. People here defending corporal punishment: I wish someone would beat you up.

    If you are right, you will stop being stupid. If you are wrong, well, you got what you had coming.

    An adult beating a child is not discipline. It is abuse. Period.

  150. Very articulate. It gives me great hope, when I read thoughts such as yours, that good people still exist.

  151. It’s unfortunate that we are so quit to jump to conclusions! Remember a 15 year old girl defying her father by wanting to leave and go to a party at 1am in the morning. No one knows what happened in that house but the Dollar family. Furthermore, had she been allowed to go that party and something happened to her, then we would be asking, “Where were her parents?” Your rant maybe valid, but I don’t believe it is in this case. Violence? Beating and discipline are two different things…! Until all the facts have been released we should all reserve our judgement!!

    • Where does it say she wanted to go to a party at 1 in the morning? Are you intentionally lying? The police report and EVERYONE involved cited the party was in fact that Saturday – meaning the next day. She asked the day BEFORE the party if she could go and he told her no because of her grades. She started crying and went to the kitchen to cry to her sister. HE got upset because she was crying and jumped on her. That is NOT disputed at all. Did you not read the police report? The conversation happened at 1 in the morning, not the party.

  152. this is just parental discipline. these days teen girls have so much attitude…it can make you wanna grab them. she just provoked her father. it was not that serious. i’ve gotten whippings and slaps coming up as a child and i needed them. discipline is what keeps your child out the grave early and from prison. back in the days before all these laws…in the black communities and Africa…i promise the whippings were worst. that’s why the crime rates are so up among young teens.

    • My heart breaks for you to feel you needed to be disciplined like an animal or a slave. Many people have grown into fine adults without being beat, hit, kicked, slapped, or otherwise physically harmed. For you to feel that it is someone Blacks that especially need to be treated like an animal instead of a human being is beyond hurtful. My husband and I have never once hit our children – and yet the receive discipline and correction. They aren’t wild animals, they are human beings. Active parenting takes time, effort, and patience. It also takes modeling of appropriate behavior. Children act more like what they “see” than what you say. So, if you are acting like a raving lunatic, so will your children.
      I already posted a video of Dollar indicating he wanted to shoot people that wouldn’t tithe to him. Maybe his daughter “provoked” him by imitating his nonsense in declaring someone should die if she didn’t get her way. That is in fact what he said should happen – those that don’t do what he says should die, those are his words and not mine.
      Maybe she felt there were no rules because Dollar himself indicated that a pedophile simply has a “wreck” and should still be followed because he was still “anointed” – even though he molested young boys.
      Please show your research which indicates those committing crimes were never whipped or beat or hit or kicked or disciplined at all. Not just how you “feel”, but please post actual statistics. Or are you simply guessing and hoping that is a way to justify violent behavior.
      If your indication that children over the entire continent of Africa are brutalized more by their parents than here in the US – what point were you making? Some of those countries are also run by violent dictators that do the same thing to adults that don’t give them the “proper” respect as well.

      • what is the crime rate of teens in America verus other countries with more strict laws. i was never treated like an animal. i did wrong. i learned from it. no bruises. no marks. no abusive relationship. i graduated on time. high honors. great education. no crime rates. at least he is in the home disciplining his child. how many black fathers are? how many of their daughters are pregnant today or drop outs. i’m 18. i’m proud to say i had my discipline because i can testify for that. and i was a very hard teen to raise. *and if i were treated like an animal, i’d be locked in a cage and worst. i’ve seen a child abused like that. verus what i got which was a whipping…..

      • You really feel you would be locked in a cell if no one hit you? Really? I was hit as a child and I never went to jail. Guess what, my husband was NEVER hit, ever – in his entire life. He also never went to jail, went to college, had 3 degrees, is a great husband and a great father. And yes, he is a Black man. So, tell me again how being treated like an animal keeps one out of trouble.
        Getting hit didn’t keep me out of trouble. I still did wrong, I still messed up, I still did things on purpose. I just learned how to not get caught.I had to learn how to do the right thing because it is the right thing to do. Now, I do what is right simply because it is right, not to avoid punishment. When I don’t make the right decision I don’t blame not being hit enough, or hard enough, or long enough.
        I do hope you find out that YOU didn’t need to be hit to learn to obey. I hope you don’t believe you need to hit your own children for them to learn to obey. And I honestly hope you don’t end up with a man to convince you he needs to hit you in order for you to “obey”.
        You mentioned crime rate, I simply asked for your proof that those committing crimes never got whipped. The premise for your argument is hitting children keeps them from committing crimes. I am assuming you have research to back that up.Just asking for your proof so I can see it for myself. Here is a cite with statistics on inmates: http://www.libraryindex.com/pages/2529/Characteristics-Inmates-PAST-ABUSE-FAMILY-BACKGROUND.html. Seems the most common factor is coming from a criminal family. This study also discusses the characteristics of the young prison population. If you have some data that shows most prisoners were never disciplined I would love to see it.

    • Actually crime rates among minority teens are down to historic lows. I minister to youths in America’s most violent city, Camden, NJ, were kids are always getting slapped by their parents. Yet, our jails are full and our murder rates contrasts against the national trend of crime reduction. Meanwhile my own three children, who I have never slapped or beaten, are intelligent, musically gifted, community service oriented young adults who continue to be a joy to raise. In my work, I deal with The Crips, The Bloods and The Latin Kings. I must get them to participate in their own betterment and I am not allowed to hit as a from of discipline. I am 6′ 2 and carry over 300 muscly pounds and could easily hit if I so choose. Instead I have to be creative and thoughtful and I must appeal to their reasoning skills. If I can get street gangs to cooperate without any violence, I’m sure parents can raise 21st century kids without slapping them.

      • Rev, I deal with children and ex offenders too. I also raised 2 children of my own who are now grown. You say crime rates among minority youths are down, but yet the jails and prison population among black youth is rising. That’s contradictory in itself. I commend you on the work you are doing but you and I both know that many of these youths had little to no discipline at home and many raised themselves because they are from single parent homes where the mom worked all day and part of the night or was on public assistance. I hear it all the time from youth, how hey wished someone was there to guide them, teach them, to love them, to be interested in them and yes to discipline them when they did wrong. There is a case in Houston where a young teen was beaten by the cops, caught on tape. The city was in an uproar of how bad the boy was beaten. Civil rights groups came to the boys aide and lawsuits were filed. 4 police officers were put on trial for their part in the beating. The boys mom said she raised him right and never had to spank him growing up. Can you believe that just recently that same young man broke into someone’s home along with 2 other teens and stole merchandise. Now, those same black people in Houston have egg on their faces and are embarrassed. Even the new black panther leader is shocked and embarrassed by this turn of events. There is an example of your 21st century kid. Perhaps your creativity and reasoning skills will help teens such as this young man. I’m sure that now when people in the city of Houston see a black youth being beaten, people won’t be so quick to judge the police and some will even think they deserve being beaten by police after this. I appeal to you to reach out to Quanel X in Houston Texas. Those teens you are helping probably had no loving father or father figure in their homes, well 90 percent of the children and ex offenders I deal with don’t and never did. Using European methods on non Europeans don’t always work and in many instances is not the best method to use. You have to reach them before they become rebellious out of control teens.

      • @4UsAll

        “You say crime rates among minority youths are down, but yet the jails and prison population among black youth is rising. That’s contradictory in itself.”

        That’s not contradictory. You’re not considering outside factors. 1) New laws can = new illegality. For instance, the highest offenses are “non-violent” crimes, such as using drugs. New laws with harsher penalties toward drug users are hitting the books all the time. Not to mention higher fines (un-payable by low-income persons) for wrong-doing due to government funding issues. Plenty of research suggests that teens, when arrested on non-violent crimes, will become criminals after living in a prison environment.

        2) Minorities are incarcerated at rates up to 7 times higher than white persons. This is due to a variety of reasons, including low economic status and racial bias (not to mention longer sentencing, etc).

        LINK: https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:92-Rw39bFfYJ:www.centerforhealthandjustice.org/FOJ%252011-10.pdf+&hl=en&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjlE4QbuYk8K4V97_a0HF6UYUvjiSk5INYL3VnbXXw7UB2Mfk5zTRfaZLUa1vzppnCrotxcdE7SDsoe1ewQ7Z51gdDsuGqnPv7Xlq9v_bQY5CaN0lDXnka88e7EwBnrmiNWpUPb&sig=AHIEtbT8q7x1ghg2oXrD1-KiGAVysYxbaA&pli=1

        3) The number of persons in prison rose 246% from 1980 to 2000 (see the below link, page 3). The number of people in prison *more than doubled* in just two decades. Do you really believe one generation is responsible for this? That one parenting generation (and their backgrounds) is responsible for the increase? What we see is a dramatic difference in policies.

        LINK: https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:ZVItx2rMOhAJ:www.churchandprison.org/files/3483016/uploaded/Mental%2520Health-ascincarcerationdraft.pdf+&hl=en&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESj76wgEOFdSpeZmrRyd0_x4_xsHBC3XPePjhIt-ujSBFcdjvActqKaDWPQjE3FqVqbeLgsWViIGgddJJg6vEGQ0ILQRDveU7y87mdJWd6-v6V8sNV4NngAje-6MGzgdwb3oUBD7&sig=AHIEtbRgqNgQxv8ho4L9piSHCXH-3aFg2Q

        4) What could be the causes of this? a) harsher laws and stricter penalties, b) economic recession in the 80s (stress and hardship can sometimes lead to crime, not to mention inability to pay back loans, etc.), c) racial bias, d) parenting, e) external influences (i.e. children being raised in the community/schools, by peers, etc.)

        I’m NOT knocking your position- you are right, broken families can lead to a life of crime. But, so can factors beyond our control. How the government chooses to deal with non-violent offenders is one of them. Unfortunately, they often deal with it by placing non-violent offenders WITH violent offenders. Then it just takes a little influence.

  153. America is the most freest country. go to another country children may not be allowed to go to outside to parties. this why America’s education is falling behind other countries with strict disciplinary laws and rules in the household. notice that countries with more strict rules have more respectable children and they are smart and not in prison.

  154. everybody wants to point out everyone else’s wrong but we all sin and every preacher suffers with trials and tests. it’s a reason they are preachers to teach the word and their experiences. i mean they are humans.

  155. We dont know what the hell went down, clearly she wasnt abused bcuz there were no marks or bruises. I honestly feel both side fabricated some things&ppl need to let other ppl handle they households&stop trying to play Judge&jury. There isnt nothing wrong with spanking your child to let them know that their actions have consequences bcuz all that punishment stuff doesnt work, I know that for a fact. Every household has to do things differently bcuz everyone is different. You are no higher or better or have place to place judgement,hell it aint even none of our business&if it had b some regular Joe Blow ppl wouldnt even care. He needs to just step back&go into his how and face whatever issues are there and unless any of you are in that household or know there very personally none of you can say what you KNOW happened or what you KNOW he needs to do.

    • 1. There is is something very wrong with “spanking” your adolescent children. They are old enough to understand more than just violence. If they aren’t then they’re retarded and if people don’t think so then they are ignorant.

      2. and regardless of the situation we don’t know SO, it should be treated as any case regardless of someone’s position in society. AND it wasn’t. He was rewarded rather than investigated.

      3. We are not talking ou the sin of a man. If we were we would also be talking about letting Zimmerman free. No, we are talking about a perpetual cycle that allows men to beat there daughters and call it discipline. And it is ok? HELL NO! Human or not we all have to pay the consequences for our actions. If a bee sting someone in self defense, punishment, or even by mistake, I DIES! A shoe is a a verry ignorant way of discipline and his “human” ass needs to be taught something more Humane than violence.

      4. Bottom iine if we keep treating each other as slaves to be beaten then the slave mentality will continue to perpetuate. (as I have sadly seen in the past posts)

      Oh and I would like to post this for any cowardice ass people who think that beating there children is right, I invite you to fight someone your own size. Or not even your own size, I might be smaller than you, How ever, I’m feeling really vigilante right now. and I’m sure I can do better than a shoe!

  156. I dont for one minute believe the Black community is really serious about domestic violence and outrage about domestic violence.
    I don’t support what Creflo did, however what he may have done is such a non issue for Black people in general that I`m disgusted about the double standard.
    This is nothing more than a case of Black people caring more about what celebrities do, than what they do themselves in their own daily lives.
    If you want to see domestic violence anywhere, look at Black women beating their children in anger.
    If you want to see domestic violence anywhere, look at Black women cursing their children in public in anger.
    If you want to see domestic violence anywhere, look at Black women slapping their children upside their head in anger.
    If you want to see domestic violence anywhere, look at Black women hitting their children with pans, plates, pots, soup spoons in anger.
    If you want to see domestic violence anywhere, look at Black women throwing items at their children in anger.
    If you want to see domestic violence anywhere, look at Black women doing their best to destroy their family.
    If you want to see domestic violence anywhere, look at Black women demean, insult, ridicule and degrade their children.
    If you want to see domestic violence anywhere, look at Black women whipping their children with broomsticks, belts or whips in anger.
    In the Black diaspora in America, Europe and in Africa it is 15 times likelier for a Black woman to beat her children than any man . That has been my observation.
    In America today, for every beating a child gets from her father or from his father, the mother, the babysitter, the grandmother, the stepmother, the aunt has already beaten the children black and blue more than 15 times.
    This is what we should be concerned about. Not about a naughty girl that might have been beaten by a celebrity pastor in a 3-million dollar mansion.
    The reason Creflo Dollar might have had the idea of hitting his daughter is because we actually believe its ok to beat out children, and because we think its ok to pretend to be outraged if a celebrity does it.
    Just last week Saturday, I saw a young woman slap and pinch her daughters ear all the way from the Bus through the bus stop all the way to the shopping mall. The bystanders pretended like they didn’t see her.

    • Um. This article fully acknowledged Black women’s complicity in perpetuating this cycle of violence. So I’m not sure why you felt you needed to emphatically restate your argument to the point of redundancy.

      That said, Black communities should care more about violence, particularly that which Black women experience. But typically, when we talk about Black-on-Black violence we are talking about Black males.

      So whatever. You will not use this space to vilify Black women or to promote an anti-feminist agenda. Be forewarned.

      Peace.

  157. You know…it never seaces to amaze me…how we are so seperated on triune matters in each others lifes…especially when we were…ALL…cut from the same cloth. Perhaps one part of the body of christ here isnt…and shouldnt have too…explain to the other part what is going on. To him whom is given much …much is expected in return……..and perhaps this is jist another little spat…that seeks to ripp alot of that authority to the ground….yeh tho we walk thru that valley…and we the parents know…right? Perhaps its the child in this case using this all to create seperation as an adolescent primong her parent for even a greator seperation in the family. Not only do we act like children…we are…ALL…children of god…and for this we should remain as such…students and not the master. What shall we learn then should we think and only later find out we were not ready to take the masters seat…..humble comes to mind…and such was the road to getting there. So then hard as it may seem…we grow to luminate such the paths in which we grow or humble ourselves. We must remember we judge not for within each of us is our own worst judge upon ourselves alone…if we rule over our OWN selves alone in the presence of the almighty…this is the way to self growth…not groupy living…remember….although we are all here on this circle we call earth and this vibration we call life….JESUS…died as a PERSONAL savior …and sometimes in life it needs to stay personal and not a groupy issue or instance. If we fail to keep to ourselves on certain issues…and life becomes a vicious circle…..it reminds me of the tower of babble. Was it not GOD who chose the people to become dumb founded? Or was it the way of the fighting/figuring folks who dumbfounded themselves such as we all are here. Dont get me wrong…these places are great to expand and rise up to the shareing of knowledges from experiences……not the experiences we went through and the emotionals from that shouldnt be reflected on another and their situation. This walks hand in hand folks. There was a simular instance in scripture it pertained to seperating caff from the wheat. Wheat is a friendship thing as well as a harvest thing. Non the less not harvested correctly alot can be lost. And not processed right can spoil the bread of this life. All i know is love is not made with chains…its made by being ourselves and being able to cohabitate with others in a consecutive manner. There is no love greator than what god did in carne on the cross…when christ jesus said it was finished…what was it he was saying…”Thers nothing we can do ever in any instamce thats gonna make a bigger difference(and why would we wanna change it) to draw light to whom and what and why.,whats the real jazz behind it all. A wisest of mankind told me onetime….we as his image have all we need to sustain ourselves forever in all things…what being made in Gods image and all….but somewhere between the tree of knowledge and ourselves we got stuff twisted…perhaps if we back up and reload we will adventually get to where we are comfortanle with ourselves enuf we wont habe to sit the seats anove or below our brothers and sisters of this earth. Yes let go and let god and pray for both in this fashion that God would be exaulted by both nelievers in the end and make the move from point a too b in a more peacefull assention…and all who believed said….WHAT?…….Amen and Amen

  158. Thank you for writing this piece. I’m glad to see that someone is teaching and preaching because it sure isn’t happening at some of these churches… (enter Creflo Dollar & his buddy Eddie Long). Keep fighting the good fight!

  159. For all of you that has a problem with Pastor Dollar and the way he disciplined his disrespectful child, please take a look at the following video. This is where we are headed, if we are not careful. Please pay special attention at the 1:57 mark.

    • The failures of parenting are not so much revealed in the punishment meted out but by the circumstances that lead to the confrontational moment. If a parent is either slapping or getting slapped, parental failure has already won. Violent confrontations are a signal that the parental approach simply has not worked.

  160. Thank you for a moving piece of writing, which has caused me to reflect and think.

  161. Damn, this was a beautiful post. I don’t agree with every point, but 99% will do. I’ve said this exact thing many times, though I will admit that I haven’t said it as well as you. I’m subscribing! (Lawd, I done thrown in with the feminazis now–but if they’re gonna be so RIGHT…!) I’m a black man and I’ve been telling black folks for a while now that prisons are FULL of people who didn’t have any “rods” spared. Or belts. Or sticks. Or extension cords. The black community has lots of churches and lots of violence. Beating your children is violence. Please stop pretending otherwise. And it’s not working.

    Look, if your father “loves” you and he beats you, why shouldn’t you beat to death the man you hate?

    A simple way to begin to address this problem of child abuse in the community is to dump the euphemisms. Whoopings, whoppings, rods, and switches are all bullshit.

    It’s whippings with whips. You know, like the ones you see in history books. Think about that the next time you get it in your head to whip your child. That SHOULD really give your black ass pause.

    • Many of you men have no right to comment because some of you walked out on your daughters and left the woman to raise them by herself. Only to have some other man molest them. Now you know what went on in Creflo Dollars house when you deserted your own. And who’s fault is it for you women who married and dated abusive men? Who forced any of you into those relationships? The sex, the money or he looked good so you stayed. I don’t condone any man or woman , punching, choking or kicking their children unless they are in fear of their life. Teenagers have tempers too. Some of you single parents are afraid of your children and are afraid to admit it. You raised some of these teenage monsters using European methods and they still wind up in jail, on drugs or pregnant. Okay, here is something for you so called Christians to think about, even though there is nowhere in any bible where Jesus called himself a Christian. I know some will say a Christian is to be Christ like. I guess to be Jewish is to be Jew like or Gentile is to be Gentile like. God spoke to people throughout the bible. Did all of them listen and obey His word? What methods did God use when we, his children, disobeyed and rebelled against Him? God killed some who disobeyed, rebelled or challenged Him. I guess many of you should now judge God and tell Him how He should have disciplined his children who were disobedient and rebellious. Some of you would say, “Not the flood God and please don’t destroy Sodom and Gomorrah?” How many times has God spoken to us and we did not obey and then have something tragic happen? I hear some of you thinking, Creflo is not God, he is a man. Right, but who are Christians suppose to follow? Is God not the head of man and aren’t we all over-comers or have we overcame already? If Creflo is wrong, where is your forgiveness instead of judgement? Who is praying for him and his family to be healed if he is guilty of wrongdoing or crimes he may have committed? Where is your faith now instead of condemnation? That is why I said so called Christians.

  162. This starkly truthful post had me crying half-way through. Thanks for sharing such real experiences and thoughtful musings. This is great writing, and these are important thoughts.

  163. This is so pitiful, that we sit here and dedicate so much time to proving what? Okay let’s say that this happened from the point of view of his daughters. He has been arrested humiliated for his actions. Let’s say the girls are not telling the truth; they are still dealing with the ridicule. As a Christian, the only solution is for us to pray for this family. We are so quick to jump on people, but all of us have shortcomings and weaknesses; which Im sure we would not want disclosed to the public. Let’s pray for the family, because this is the enemy bringing division within the home, within the church and look at how people are going back and forth on this issue. Because at the end of outsiders will take this as something to represent what the church stands for, its opens the way people to insult the christian faith. And guess what it was a fellow christian that went outside to make a whole blog and open the way for people to condemn our faith. I wonder why the bible says the children of the world are wiser than the children of the kingdom. Let’s use wisdom and use the weapon of prayer to cover the nakedness and shame of this family. That is our job to pray for one another. If your brother or child did something horrific, would you go on a site and blast them? I dont think so. This doesnt mean that he is not accountable if he did all that was said, but let’s be careful how we judge lest we also be judge. Much love

    • L.U., I don’t know you. And my questions are not truly directed at you, but at the mindset you share with many others. It seems to me that for all of the insistence that MAYBE it didn’t happen like the victim *and* her sister said, that many people here don’t care if it DIID happen that way. That even If he did chokeslam his daughter, that it is somehow okay. And I am so saddened by that.

      “We are so quick to jump on people, but all of us have shortcomings and weaknesses; which Im sure we would not want disclosed to the public.”

      This is so true, BUT some of our shortcomings and weaknesses need to be disclosed anyway! It doesn’t matter what we (the abuser, the victimizer, the violator) want.

      Abusers LOVE when people mind their own business.

      “As a Christian, the only solution is for us to pray for this family.”

      That’s not true at all. It looks like Dollar’s Christian family found another solution, no different than if she had been trapped in a burning house or a wrecked car– they called on some other “authorities”.

      Let me ask all of you Christian’s that share this same mindset: had you been in the home with the Dollar family when this took place, would you really have stood by and said nothing? Would you have really relied upon the power of prayer to remove this man’s fingers from his daughter’s throat? Would you have really stared out the window as he wrestled her to the ground? Would you really have left her there with him and done nothing? Not stop it, not call the police, not call anyone?

      Really?

      • First of all I would never condone violence, the bible talks about a deacon should not be a striker and so forth. My mom was a victim of domestic violence. I never said she shouldnt have called the police when it happened. My point is that they clearly have deep underlying issues like a lot of families and our job is to ensure that this changes. If he wasnt arrested, would we have known what was going on in the home? No. so my point is that we have to keep our leaders and those who are in a position to mentor us; in our prayers constantly, because this issue will become a big public issue about race, about christianity and quite frankly it is about this family having a deeper problem. So let us be a REAL solution by praying for them at all times, as well as praying for our own families., by counseling, by talking to one another and not just running to condemn ppl. what are we doing as a family/body of Christ to fix it. Because if its not a one time thing, then we can talk from here till eternity and nothing will change, especially if its inherent in him. but people can change their overall behavior through prayer

      • l.u wrote “people can change their overall behavior through prayer”

        There’s no guarantee that even prayer will change someone’s behaviour.

        While some folks are focused on that matter, some of us just want to know, WHERE CAN SOME CHILDREN GET HELP? Especially if they have “prominent,” powerful or influential parents.

      • it’s about your level of faith and relationship with God. If you already doubt that prayer wont work, then it wont. simple as that.

      • and to add to that when I say prayer, there are different kinds of prayers. there is asking, knocking and seeking prayers. We are always asking. We can also seek God for a solution. So when I say prayer, God can lead you and give you instruction on how to amend a problem. Even in the bible people had similar illnesses, but Jesus used different methods. So whether its counseling, or fasting or having a family pow-wow that will fix it, just let God take control. What I say, I speak from experience, else I wouldnt say it

      • L.U., Thanks for responding. I’m glad you think calling the police was the right thing. This might be treated as a big public issue about race and Christianity, but I think it is foremost an issue about domestic violence and power and subjugation. I think it’s about the girl’s rights. Many people think it’s about the father’s.

        I admit that I don’t think prayer actually does anything, so we’re never going to close the gap there. In fact, my criticism is that calls for prayer really amount to a lot of inconsequential hand-wringing from people who are too scared, indifferent, or self-interested (i.e., abusers themselves) to actually get involved. It works great in conjunction with action (‘The whole time I was running, I prayed to the Lord to give me the strength to get there in time!”) and terrible without it.

        I just cannot understand how anyone can think it’s okay to knowingly let someone suffer until prayers are answered–instead of praying for them, why can’t we pray for the strength to be the answer to their prayers?

      • I know and have experienced the power of prayer and so thats why I stress it. Only God can transform people. There are some people that cannot control their urges or their behavior, even when they are counseled, or spoken to; but prayer can change people; I will testify to that. Now how you want to fashion your prayer is up to you. But God offers the solution, maybe God will directly change him (bearing that the accusations are completely true), maybe a friend will speak to him, it can be that he is changed because he is humiliated, nevertheless it is God’s doing. My annoyance was really mindless gossip with no solution, we sometimes place ourselves in predatory mode and waiting for someone to mess up.we should try to find ways to address issues, both spiritually and physically.

      • Chris Robinson wrote: “Let me ask all of you Christians that share this same mindset: had you been in the home with the Dollar family when this took place, would you really have stood by and said nothing? Would you have really relied upon the power of prayer to remove this man’s fingers from his daughter’s throat? Would you have really stared out the window as he wrestled her to the ground? Would you really have left her there with him and done nothing? Not stop it, not call the police, not call anyone? Really?”

        Wow. Just WOW.

        Thank you, Chris Robinson.

  164. I am appalled at the vitriolic comments regarding the piece written by this sister. We are each entitled to our opinion; we do not need to resort to personal attacks to articulate what our position is.

  165. I really think these points are valid. Far too often people shy away from making a stand about domestic violence. People cover it up or deny it. So what if it doesn’t leave a physical mark, it is still abuse. And all too often it is the emotional abuse that comes with the violence that does the worst damage. I tried to touch upon this theme in my novel, in which the main character struggles with the internal turmoil because of the abuse from her father. People need to recognise.

    • Also, when Lauren Dollar said that she is afraid to stay live in that house that was revealing to me, because it indicated a deeper issue in that house hold. Also, my parents disciplined me and my 3 siblings. I was born in 1967, so my siblings and I grew up in the late 60s, all of the 70s, and the early 80s. Not one time did either of my parents grab our neck and “CHOKE” us. That was the threshold difference between the Discipline, and ABUSE. Dollar needs to accept responsibility for his acts and stop pimping his congregation. He probably made more money in collections after the “Beat Down” of his child, than before. Black Folk got to stop reinforcing negative behavior of these pastors. The Eddie Long people are doing the same for him. I would like to thank the author of this article for steeping up and writing this candid and well-written article. I fully support this position.

  166. …why did the police allow the daughter to return to an abusive environment? Am I missing something here?

    • The police arrested her dad. It is not clear whether his daughter remained at home after he was released. But I read elsewhere that he was prohibited from being in contact with her.

  167. I’m 20 and have already left the church for reasons you listed above. I didn’t figure it was that at the time but now I am more sure. It makes my skin crawl with the misogynistic behaviors of the black religious community, with it being more apparent in my own residence where my stepdad is a practitioner as well. It has ALWAYS irked me the more recent events [from the Chris Brown/Rihanna instance and onward] that made it more and more painfully obvious.

    Another example is the politician caught beating his son fro dropping a baseball while they were playing catch. It was explained TWICE in the news what had happened and yet still my mother blamed the child. When I explained to her what happened, all the sudden she was suspiscous of the neighbor who had caught it on tape. Sometimes I just can’t even….

    So thank you for writing this. Until I can find a church that understands all this and is more welcoming to the LGBTQ [and the rest of the non-hetero/cis normative spectrum], I think I will stay on the atheist side.

    But best believe this is going on my facebook….and a special email sent to my mother.

  168. Not to minimize in any way, but may I suggest that this is symptomatic of the church in general? I’m the daughter of a white Protestant minister and received similar attitudes from the elders brought in to mediate in my abusive marriage. It’s shameful!!

  169. @Peter Cornswalled If you walked up to me on the street, hit me, yet didn’t leave any marks, I shouldn’t have you arrested for assault? Good luck with that buddy.

    The fact is if Creflo Dollar can’t choke and beat a stranger with a shoe, he shouldn’t be doing it to anybody in his home. This isn’t 1860; there are no slaves here. And nobody in that house is his property. If he can’t control his anger with his own child, then it’s only a matter of time before he goes off on someone he’s not related to, who will
    1) fight back,
    2) call the cops on him,
    and/or 3) sue his ass.

    • Dee, you are under the impression that his daughter isn’t his property–I don’t think that is a settled issue in the minds of WAY too many people.

      And I don’t understand why you think Dollar will one day go off on someone to whom he is not related. He’s smarter than that–he can push down that rage until he can get home to take it out on a relative, where many people will rise up to defend him because it is his right OR that will take the massive action of doing nothing while keeping his family in their prayers.

  170. Awesome post!!! I have been saying for years- Black women ARE the Black church! If we ever figure that out, we can promote real, positive, lasting change. Also, I love the fact that you pointed out that feminism and Christianity need not be mutually exclusive ideas. I’m both. And the fact that Jesus was both (I totally never thought about it that way- Thank You!!!) lets me know I’m on the right path! Awesome, awesome post!!!

  171. The Sheeple posting these comments should be ashamed of themselves. I wouldn’t go to a black church or any church if were paid too.

  172. I can’t imagine those girls making this whole story up, maybe he has been abusing them all the time and they finally spoke up to expose him. But the church has been mostly slient about domestic violence, its time for the church to speak out against this and hold abusers accountable whether male or feamile.

  173. The church isn’t failing women. Christian women don’t know the bible. A true student of the word knows that YOU are the church. So #rightfist @ Dane, Cynthia and 4UsAll for previous statements.

    “The so-called violent, hierarchical stances against women,” is a huge stretch, but it’s good for shock value. The root of the issue is parenting and accountability. Spare the rod…you know the rest. Out of control teens are aided and abetted by passive parenting. On the other hand, women are so beat up emotionally that they don’t know what to do.

    The pastor is obviously being targeted. Creflo Dollar is responsible for his daughter and should run his house however he sees fit. People need to stop letting the world raise their children. When a child gets outta line, a parent has every right to put them in check. If they don’t, the system will.

    What is the source of so-called “feminism?” Could it be part of the same agenda that’s telling people not to beat their kids? Who benefits from unruly children and women indoctrinated with victim mentalities? How did “discipline” become a NATIONAL issue in the first place? Who were the experts, psychologists and journalist who wrote studies and stories? If you look closely you will see what’s really going on.
    Stick together people. Black Power over everything.

    • “Black Power over everything.”

      Yep. But until we get it over *everything*, we may as well have it over those black girls and women who are too weak to fight back, huh? At least that, huh? If, as you say, women are the church, the church is getting its ass kicked. And what’s your solution?

      As I’ve said, many black people honestly think they somehow “own” their children and therefore have the right to do whatever they want with them.

      I’ll leave it to a righteous person like yourself to puzzle out whether our history should give us pause about something like that.

      “What is the source of so-called “feminism?” Could it be part of the same agenda that’s telling people not to beat their kids?”

      Just SMH.

    • that is very true. he is the man of his household. and the church ISNT failing anyone.

  174. I assume you have read bell hooks’ The Will to Change. If you have not, I highly recommend it. I think you will find a compelling explanation for people’s (and even her own mother’s) willingness to forgive Creflo Dollar for his reprehensible behavior.

  175. I’m almost 20, I’m black, I’m a woman. I took the time to read through all of the comments and it’s amazing how many people support abuse and/or ignorance, and say it in similar ways too. “We don’t know exactly what happened” “he who sinneth not casteth the first stone” “children these days are out of control, especially teenage girls” “my parents beat me and I ended up going to college and getting a degree”…ETC. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, true, but I’m also entitled to being disgusted by people who think abuse is justified because your teenager “acted out.” Get to the heart of what crunktastic wrote here, don’t just regurgitate what your own parents–who abused you–told you, THINK, for yourselves! Read comments, absorb. You don’t HAVE to change your [abuse-enabling] opinion, sure, but have the courage to consider the other side. Children have rights too. As many others have pointed out, they are NOT property, they are NOT wild animals, they are NOT cattle. I was merely spanked growing up, and I don’t call that abuse, but my parents were undeniably abusive to me in other ways and physically abusive to my other two sisters who were more strong-willed than me. Are they less strong-willed to this day, might you ask? Nope. My parents kept on using methods for them that didn’t work. Now is that the child’s fault or the parents? And don’t get me wrong, I understand that parenting is one hell of a task, that we’re all humans here and we all make mistakes, but Creflo happens to be a huge, influential public figure who STILL needs to be accountable for his sins like the rest of us ought to be. Is is that difficult to admit that you were wrong? Is it THAT unbelievable that *gasp* a parent could ACTUALLY abuse their child??? If I don’t see any bruises, NOTHING HAPPENED! The child must have done something to deserve it! Hmm…I guess the rape victim seduced her rapist and the children killed from abuse must have been acting like raving lunatics. I guess we shouldn’t be condemning Zimmerman for shooting Martin because we weren’t there. We shouldn’t even turn on the news. *facepalm*

    Crunktastic, go get em.

    And for those who have a problem with feminists, you DO know that it’s not about man-hating or not shaving…right? You do know we’re simply advocating for the agency of…women? Is that okay? Too bad I’m still going to be a feminist whatever you say.

  176. What if his daughters are lying. You make very valid points, but regarding the Dollars, your comments can only be viewed as assumptions and speculation. I am the mother a 4 girls, two are now grown and two still home. When my oldest was a teenager she lied like a rug to several family members to try and get sympathy and ultimately to get her way. These family members immediately took her side and and aggressively confronted and condemned me for the way I was treating my daughter. I was furious with my daughter for being so selfish and manipulative and pissed at my family for being so naive…Why? Everything my daughter was telling them was a BOLD FACE LIE!! In the heat of the moment I grabbed my daughter and if not for my husband coming between us I would have knocked her out. Yes, knocking her out would have been a bad idea, however I am an imperfect woman that came completely unfair judgment by people who spent little to no time in the presence of my family as a result of the lies of a teenager that had never thought thru how devastating her actions would be to our relationship and to our family. We have an amazing relationship today, but the hills and valleys were sometimes unpredictable and extremely hard. I have no idea what specifically took place in the Dollar household, BUT I refuse to trivialize the power of prayer which would lend itself to the thought that my assumptions and speculation deserve more power. It would have been shameful for me to unleash the beat I was about put on my teenager, however grabbing a belt a and whooping her tail wouldn’t have been. Many will remain divided about the issue of whooping/spanking children, but my bible says “spare the rod, spoil the child”. I’m sure many will go to town tipping me apart in response to my comments and that’s fine because that’s what we humans do. I choose to not lean to my own understanding but actually trust in God with all my heart. We humans think way too much of ourselves, assuming that we would react differently in a similar situation. We all are capable of of terrible things in the heat of the moment that’s why we have to daily die to self, even dieing to self every waking moment and allowing the Holy spirit to help and guide us in our thoughts, our actions and reactions

    • Based on the support he’s getting from his church and from so many commenters on this blog, I think the assumption is that she’s lying. My question is: what if she isn’t?

      And precisely because we are imperfect, we should be intentional about dialoguing and thinking through better ways to handle the situation should we find ourselves in it. Being a person of faith in part is about making intentional and committed decisions about how we will live despite temptations and tough situations. Parenting should be no different.

  177. Excellent analogy on the historical tone of the black church. But Im not following the Jesus feminism transition.

    • Jesus cared about and valued women. He went against social customs to talk to them. He allowed them to be the first witness to His Resurrection. He ignored the disciples when they asked Him to silence and ignore women. He considered them intellectual equals and wouldn’t allow men to devalue them. In the stridently patriarchal culture in which He ministered, these actions are inherently feminist.

  178. The prophet said to the people,”let God be your king”. But the people were wise in their own eyes. They knew better than God

  179. As a husband and father, my biggest problem with this article — with this entire blog — centers on the fact that not enough women — and men — will read it! Couldn’t agree more whole-heartedly with the author — and, just became a regular reader of the blog!

  180. I don’t agree that the Bible condones violence towards women. Paul tells men to love their wives as Jesus loved the church, and he died for the church. Solomon tells us that a wife is a good thing. Men are to love them and cherish them. The Bible says to “love you wife as you love your own body”. Tradition is to blame for the the belief that a man has the right to beat his wife and children. Man- made traditions are our downfall. Don’t get it twisted.

  181. I have not read where anybody is condoning beating a child or woman. We can interpret our bibles anyway we want to prove a point, such as when I quoted where God killed people who rebelled or disobeyed Him, as the flood with Noah and Sodom and Gomorrah. God tried talking to His people, but they would not listen. Was God violent for what He did? Would any of you condemn God for His form of discipline? We keep thinking that the church is a building when the church is within us all, so what church failed women. Many black people are limited in their thinking as it relates to their bible because many were brought up with the King James version which you hold dear to your hearts just like voting Democrat or believing that the president is suppose to create jobs when that is nowhere in the constitution. It’s traditional thinking handed down from generation to generation. The first bible in the usa was the geneva bible, but no one here talks about that. With so many interpretations of the bible do you believe they all say or mean the same thing? Just because a person can read does not mean they can comprehend or understand what they read. Does every parent raise their children the same way? NO. Whose responsibility is it then? Black people need to go outside America and find their own truths and stop debating and arguing over something they have little knowledge of because few know and will tell you the truth. We need to stop relying on someone else’s truth and interpretation of God’s Word. Whenever a country or people want to colonize and control any other, the first thing they bring is their government and their religion. Historical fact. Many are not ready for the truth because they don’t want their minds to be free of certain untruths such as, it was your own African people who caught, enslaved and traded you to Whites assisted by the so called Christians who auctioned blacks ancestors off inside the church buidings using, quoting and engraving scriptures from your King James bibles.
    The truth is, God gave man authority and dominion over all including the woman. Read your holy books and you will find that SIN did not enter the world when the woman ate of the forbidden fruit, SIN entered when the woman gave it to the man and he ate of it. It all goes back on the man whom God made first, then took the woman from the man. Does any of what I said give any man the right to beat a woman, NO. If the church has failed any woman, then that woman has failed herself.

    • Are you serious? What does this issue we are discussing have to do with who sold whom into slavery? You seem to have a very low opinion of Black people and our limited ability to think (according to you). In one fell swoop you paint all black people with the same broad brush instead of seeing us as a group of people with differing ideas, abilities, politics, religious beliefs, etc. We are no more homogenous than any other group in this country. It is one thing to respectfully disagree with the opinions of others It is quite another to approach the discussion with contempt and condescension. We can certainly disagree without becoming disagreeable.

      • That’s a bunch of nonsense. More rhetorical analogy. I never lumped all black people into any category. I said seek the truth for yourself and stop depending on others for your truths. You are stronger than what you think. You are more knowledgeable than what you think, but you will never know until you seek. What do you base your opinions on? We can’t dialogue very much because you probably have never been anywhere outside these borders except for maybe to the islands on vacation. So it is limited knowledge, but you can’t see that and probably never will. There is a reason why some, not all, black women go into attack mode when there is a difference of opinion. Perhaps a better topic would be the Church failing angry black women. And you wonder why so many single black women are in the Church.

      • 4usall,
        Why do presume to know where I have traveled in the world? You say my knowledge is limited. On what do you base that? The topic of discussion is child discipline vs child abuse in relation to the Creflo Dollar incident. Being a world traveler is not perquisite to knowing the difference between discipline and abuse. There are lots of reasons why there are single Black women in the church. What’s your point?

  182. A few decades ago I worked at a state fair selling computer generated portraits on cloth calendars and t-shirts. A woman brought her grandson in but he would not smile. She walked over and punched him in the mouth and screamed, “Smile you goddamn bastard.” My co-worker walked over and told that if she hit the kid again he’d hit her. She screamed at him, may parents beat me and I turned out fine. He replied, you were beaten and you became a child beater, How exactly is that fine? (She pulled the kid away and he smiled at us. He had ample reason not to smile, he needed an orthodontist quite badly.)

  183. Crunktastic,

    The fact that so many people came out of the woodwork to argue and attempt to discredit you just further demonstrates the need to confront these issues. (Incidentally, this type of self-reinforcing patriarchy is exactly why I have zero use for organized religion.) You told it true — THANK YOU.

    • i dont understand why this is turning into an argument of feminist about chris brown or domestic violence. how do you jump from child abuse to that bull? *women can be a bit sensitive. and different cultures have different believes in disciplining their children. if this is America, home of the free and so many ppl believe in it? why the argument over this?

      • if this is America, shouldnt you embrace different cultural beliefs. and back in the days, the black community believed in the village. that was a cultural belief. whipping your child was not child abuse. matter of fact, if one parent saw another child misbehaving, they’d punish em and then the child would get punished when they returned home.

      • These new age parents want to use time outs, take away privileges and ground their kids. If you spank, whip, tap or touch some of these kids expect Child Protective Services to visit you and be classified and labeled as a child abuser. What happens when the police beat them. Is that the same?

      • 4UsAll – are your parenting skills really that poor that the only option is “you” hitting your kids or the police hitting your kids? I know PLENTY of people that were never hit (including my husband) and he nor they have EVER been arrested, kicked out of school, hit by the police or anyone else.
        If “you” think your children are probably going to grow up to be criminals unless you beat them into submission – they must think so poorly of themselves and of you. I mean really. Is that the only parenting skill in your pocket – violence?
        As for “time out” – most times that is best for the parent, so the parent isn’t reacting in anger, but takes time to truly consider the situation and figure out the best course of action. I am willing to bet that if Creflo took a “time out” and thought about if it was necessary to jump on his daughter because she was crying, we wouldn’t be having this conversation today.
        But really – what kind of life style are YOU showing your children where their only option is take a beating from you or become a career criminal. That must be one sad and miserable life in your home.
        Maybe you should spend more time being a good role model and positive influence in the life of your children and less time figuring out just how much pain to inflict to keep them from going to jail. I would hate to have a parent that thought I was pretty much going to be a good for nothing criminal unless they beat me like a rabid dog or an escaped slave. What very low expectations you have for your children.

      • Kera,

        Slaves get whipped. Back in the day it was a cultural belief that it was okay to whip grown men like Creflo. Do you respect it? Would you have respected it then? Not all cultural norms are worthy OF respect. I know a lot of people here have an issue with any criticism of a black father beating/whipping/slamming/choking/scratching/pinning/whatever a black girl, but it’s total bullshit and it doesn’t matter if it’s culturally acceptable or not.

        And I just cannot believe that you tied the idea of treating black children like rebellious SLAVES with American freedom. Sickening.

  184. “If you spank, whip, tap or touch some of these kids expect Child Protective Services to visit you and be classified and labeled as a child abuser. What happens when the police beat them. Is that the same?”

    No, because the police don’t claim to love them. Nor will the abusive police be supported by the black community. If you REALLY want to abuse black children, it helps to be a terrible black parent.

  185. I have to repost something 4UsAll put up because it summarizes a line of thought in the black community that is straight out of the white supremacist handbook:

    ” Using European methods on non Europeans don’t always work and in many instances is not the best method to use. You have to reach them before they become rebellious out of control teens.”

    Can you think of a statement that more perfectly captures the notion of the subhuman nature of black people, of the idea that we cannot be reasoned with or gently corrected, than this? That, ultimately, violence is the only language that black people understand?

    I’ve heard this kind of thing before. And I’ve seen people laugh about it at any number of standup comedy gigs. But if we really think this about black people, why even bother?

    • WithYah- My children are grown educated and very successful. They did not need whipping because they had a loving father which many black families don’t have but think being raised without a loving father is normal. It’s not normal for your information. I don’t condone beating or abusing children, but I see your mentality is limited so I can’t discuss this with you. I provide employment for black ex inmates and have heard the many stories of fatherless homes and no discipline or guidance growing up. Not one expressed being beaten growing up because the single mom was working 2 jobs to make ends meet. She was not home so they had to raise and discipline themselves. Yes, there are some abusive parents in some homes but use your brain, who forced any of the women to have children by any of these abusive fathers. Women need to be more selective in who they lay down with. If the man did not have a father or father figure growing up, where did he get his parenting skills from, a book or is it inherited? Don’t sell yourselves cheap for money or looks and stay in abusive relationships which endanger your children. You probably wouldn’t know anything about that so omit that. Teach your daughters so they can stop having babies by these abusive boys who grow up to be abusive men.

      Chris Robinson with all due respect, the statement you made about white supremacy is one of the most ridiculous statements I have read. Evidently reading and comprehension is not one of your strong suits. You have no idea about white supremacy. Go to Germany and you will see what real white supremacy is. I’m sorry you don’t travel. You believe everything you read in America to be true. Good for you. The point I was making is that many of us, black people, think that European methods of discipline are best for our children. You sound like one of those blacks who think White folks ice water is colder that yours, but I understand your way of thinking, but please don’t use simple minded expressions. Dialogue and debate I don’t mind. Anything else is just a bunch of foolishness which neither of us have time to entertain.

      Happy Fathers Day to all loving fathers who love and take care of your children and not abuse them. Hopefully that statement will not be misconstrued to mean anything more than what is stated.

  186. 4UsAll wrote: “You sound like one of those blacks who think White folks ice water is colder that yours, but I understand your way of thinking, but please don’t use simple minded expressions.”

    Just SMH.

    “WithYah- My children are grown educated and very successful. They did not need whipping because they had a loving father which many black families don’t have but think being raised without a loving father is normal. ”

    What?! So let me see if I have this straight: Non-European children often need “different” discipline than European children (Translation: Black kids need their black asses whhipped because they can’t understand anything else); Your kids are black; Your kids didn’t need to be whipped because they had a loving father?

    What the hell are you babbling on about?! How did you discipline these black Rhodes scholars and why in the hell can’t other people do the same?

    “I provide employment for black ex inmates and have heard the many stories of fatherless homes and no discipline or guidance growing up. Not one expressed being beaten growing up because the single mom was working 2 jobs to make ends meet.”

    You know what? You’re lying. Point blank. Talking ABOUT your comments might be useful. But talking TO you is useless because I don’t think you’re real. And I’ll bet that I’m not the only one that sees it.

    • Mr. Robinson
      You said a mouthful. The quality of the discussion has been lowered to gutter level here. It is ashame too because these are serious issues that deserve serious consideration. Oh well.

      • Thanks, Sharon. I think the issue *did* get serious consideration here–it’s just that at 458 comments things were bound to get a little raggedy at some point. But this was a good comments thread.

    • Chris – I was going to say the same thing – this person is lying. She is all over the map. First – kids need to be beat be they are black, then kids need to be beat to keep them out of jail, then only kids from single mothers need to be beat. She also has perfect children they didn’t need to be beat because they have a father. Guess what – THIS ENTIRE ARTICLE was about a BLACK FATHER BEATING HIS CHILD! So, in essence she AGREES with the piece – if Creflo was the loving father he should have been he wouldn’t have been beating up his daughter.
      But yes, she also “employes ex cons”. Okay – sure, right. So, you have grown perfect children that didn’t need to be beaten because you had a husband and now you are also an expert on the children that need to be beaten because you employ them and it is their mother’s fault because she was out working when she should have been home beating them? Did we get that right?
      This is funny now. Trying to hard to make folks believe you know what you are talking about and your story is getting more insane. The more you argue the more you prove the thesis of the article – he shouldn’t have been beating on his daughter. Everything else you have contributed is useless. Stop trying to make things up 4UsAll. Even your screen name tells it all – you have the answers for everyone – right?

      • CHRIS ROBERSON..rebellious slaves would have experienced more than that. get the facts right. nat turner was killed. was this child killed? no. slavery is nothing compared to this. slaves had permanent marks and bruises. slaves had blood to follow it. slaves got sick. slaves died.
        4USALL…everythng you are saying is true.

      • WITHYAH? why so emotional? why so disrespectful of one’s opinion. everyone is entitled to their own opinion. here you are judging and talking about doing what’s right but you are insulting someone. do WHAT you have preached and DON’T BEAT someone down with your words.

        4USALL…respected your comment and it wasn’t a bit offensive nor so emotional.

      • Kera, I am glad you see things clearly without the unnecessary emotional attacks. No one thinks clearly when they get emotional and I understand that. Some may say some ridiculous things when they get emotional so I don’t pay any attention when people say things from an emotional standpoint. Thank you Kera for your understanding, insight and intelligence of this entire matter. God bless you.

      • This only shows more of your lack of intellect, I am a black father. I never said my children were perfect. They have very good lives and are enjoying every minute. I will always be there for them. Stop with the Disneyland thinking. It makes no sense. You are making yourself look and sound more like a fool and I believe you are smarter than that. If you are a loving black father then I respect you for being one, but think before you write foolishness. Again, I never condoned anyone beating their child and never would. I see and work with ex inmates all the time so I think I know a little something about abuse. All I read on here is people attacking others for their opinions. Attacking pastor Dollar when nobody here was actually there in the Dollars household. Besides the reverend, who works with problem teens, who else is doing anything to help. Just like some black folks to talk a lot of noise, but wait for others to do something to solve the problems. Kera said it all and I agree with her totally.

      • Wow – lack of intellect. Your attacks are just silly because you can’t stay focused on the actual topic at hand. And now you are putting “Pastor” Dollar on some crazy pedestal as if his actions somehow superior to anyone else. Please stop the hero worship.
        But, I digress, the conversation with you is getting boring because you simply come back adding more made up information. Oh yea, then the “no one knows what happened in the house” story. We have two accounts of a consistent version – one from the victim and one from the witness. Then we have an account from Creflo that is inconsistent with the witness. But, that doesn’t matter to you , he is a “pastor” after all.
        Honestly, conversation with you is now boring simply because you have proven you will make things up or bring things to the discussion that aren’t relevant at all. What does this issue with Dollar having to do with children being raised in fatherless homes? That is just silly. In trying to save the “pastor” you have now vilified black people in general, single mothers, and now black men. You have treated any black man living in the home as if they are rare and assumed that it is either beatings or jail for blacks raised by single mothers. But, as long as you can find someway of making this not about the situation at hand you are happy.
        The piece is about the silence of the black church when it comes to violence in the home. You again have proven the thesis of the article – thanks for playing, we are done here.

      • Ok Judge WithYah. I assume you are a Supreme Court Judge. Congratulations along with the rest of the Judges here. I don’t know Pastor Dollar but I am sure you do and have all facts and answers. Great. Good job. Now I am finished and won’t respond to anymore foolishness. Enough already.

    • And we wonder why the black family is falling apart. Answer, because of black men with this type mentality. How can we solve the problems of abuse when black men run and hide from their responsibilities and present themselves as feeble minded. Some don’t want to solve abuse in the black family, they want to keep making babies and leave it all up to the woman. How many black men are actually doing something to help in any form or fashion? Well I can see one who is not. Prime example Mr.Robinson.

  187. Does he not have a lawyer ?because he shouldn’t have made a statement of any kind, he can’t win no matter what he said. It is very hard to raise children without having moments.We can’t please mankind and i hope that these girls are well at this time when the devil is working over time and testing this family faith,may the blood of Jesus covers then and protect them from all evil tongue and false Prophet. I believe this family as been responsible, reasonble public figures and they too are human. I don’t go to church but i know this family was good enough for god to use them a few years ago to reach me and to pull me back up when i was down. From my televison set they help me and i don’t need to know what happen but I want to know how god wants us to help fix this to get them back up again!

      • AND THIS IS THE BENEDICTION TO ALL YAWL. STOP BEING JUDGMENTAL, SO SENSITIVE, SO DISRESPECTFUL, HYPOCRITICAL LIKE YAWL AINT NEVER SINNED! CAUSE IN THE END ONLY GOD, THE GIRL, AND HER DAD KNOWS THE TRUTH!
        *aint none of yawl God, got a hell or heaven to put anyone in. yawl done all sinned regardless if YOU EVER HIT A CHILD OR NOT! and guess i’m saying all this and i aint even fired up! LET’S DO THE CHRIST LIKE THING THAT YAWL SAY YOU ARE AND STOP CASTING THE FIRST STONE AND PRAY FOR CREFLOW THAT HE DONT DO THIS ANYMORE SINCE YOU DISAGREE AND THOSE WHO AGREE KEEP ON KEEPING ON BUT PRAY TOO THAT WE ALL CAN AGREE TO DISAGREE WITHOUT TRYNA BE GODS ON EVERYBODY. ********NOW LET’S ALL BOW OUR HEADS AND PRAY………………………………..AMEN. peace out A town up!

  188. None of us should be surprised that so many people especially the women are sticking up for Creflo Dollar. He is a teacher of lies. He is a false prophet. These people are mesmerized by him. The women love him because of his looks, money and power. The men love him because they want to be him. They think that if they follow his teachings that they too will become rich and powerful. You have to realize that all of his follwers .give this Dollar con man 10 percent and more of their hard earned money. They do this because he has them beleiving that if they give x amount of money to god then god will make them rich. He does this by twisting the true meaning of bible scriptures. Creflo Dollar preys on the fundamental weakness that all of us have. We all want to be rich and be happy and healthy.His messages promise this even though NOWHERE in the bible does JESUS promisethese things.These people want Creflo to be right so bad that they believe anything he says.So dont be surprised that they stick up for him and call his poor kids liars. This guy is smacking them girls and most likey the wife as well on a reg ular basis. He thinks that he has power and that god talks to him and tells him what to do.Did you know that Evander Holyfield has given this Crflo Dollar jackass 20 million dollars over the years??? Did you know that Mr. Holyfield has 9 kids and is alway behind on child support???

    • Everybody out there who has anypull please dont let this guy of the hook. He will try to put fear into his daughters so they change their story. His followers will put so much pressure on those girls that it will be hard for them. They need help. Lets get this Creflor Dollar off of TV and off of the pulpit. He doesnt belong teaching anybody anything. He is full of ………. There are plenty of legit churches and pastors out there. When a preacher is teaching someonething it is up to us to check it out carefully by reading the bible and not just blindly believing what some so called “man of God” is saying

      • Creflo Dollar teaches riches, health and happiness here and now on earth. JESUS taught riches and happiness in HEAVEN. 2 completely opposite messages. Read the bible, Matt,Mark, Luke and John. Very easy to understand. A 6 year old would get it. What Dollar teaches is the exact opposite.

    • Let me state that I am from generations of strong black fathers, grand dad and my dad, who were married many years and raised and took good care of their families. We got spanked when we disobeyed or did not listen to our parents. We all love our parents and thank them for the discipline and correction. I had 8 of my friends Islamic and Christian, all of whom are fathers and married read some of the attacks and comments and we all can relate to 4usAll. The brother is deep so we can see how he could be misunderstood by some. Deep thinkers are seldom appreciated in our communities. I don’t want to attack anybody or get all emotional because it does cloud ones thinking.
      Let me address a few of the writers positions I have listed.
      2.Children are not our property
      3. Discipline is not synonymous with punishment or spanking. Spanking is the easy-out option. Spanking is used to communicate anger to a child for doing something wrong. Interestingly enough, in the Black Church, I think far too many of us understand God in these exact same terms –as the strict disciplinarian, who polices all our actions, ever ready to issue cosmic butt whoopings when we don’t fall into line. Thank God for delivering me from such thinking.
      4. Domestic violence is not discipline. And this was domestic violence. And I find it hard to believe that a man who will beat the shit out of his own daughter, who feels biblically justified in doing so, wouldn’t beat the shit out of her mother, too.

      The writer makes some interesting analogies. I don’t know the writer personally, but I can see there was probably generations of abuse in her family. Probably beaten badly, bloody in some cases. Some call it generational curses. I assume the writer was at this Pastors home when the incident occurred with his daughter. I guess this Pastors wife has turned a blind eye to the beatings of their daughters since they have been married. I guess the daughter has gotten the shit beat out of her before but not bad enough for any of her friends, school mates or teachers to notice and report it. Perhaps this Pastor knows when to beat the shit out of his daughter so it won’t be noticed which would make him a child abuser who plans his beatings. I can understand how a person who was beaten could answer yes to all the above questions. I once dated a woman who was beaten badly and molested by her stepfather. Her mom is serving time for killing her stepfather. Many Christians use the bible so let me use it to address the abuse issue. I could also use the Koran or the Torah or the Dead Sea Scrolls as it pertains to what we call abuse. I like to use questions to answer a question so a reader can answer clearly for themselves. First, was Jesus God in the flesh? If you believe that, then what form of discipline did God use? Did God spank, beat or whip any of His children? Whatever God did, then you have a God given right to do. Now go argue your case or cases with God. Is the writer ready to call God an abuser or a murderer for the ways He used to discipline? For those who say that was in the old days then does your bibles say that God never changes, He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

      • Some of these people grew up in abusive homes so their way of thinking in reference to abuse is already messed up. A lot of yall grew up without a loving father in the home and it is easy to tell who they are. You probably don’t know what it’s like to sat down at the dinner table and talk with your father on a consistent basis. You probably didn’t have it and your children probably never had it. That has a lot to do with your views. Spanking is not abuse. I read the police report and it did not say anything about beating the shit out of his daughter. I’ve worked cases of abuse and if there were marks on the daughter they would have removed her from the home immediately, not days or weeks later. JudgernotBjudged, 4UsAll, Ms. Kera, the Reverend and a few others, yall make good points. I can relate too. The rest of yall must be from dysfunctional families which are common in our communities nowadays because the loving caring fathers are not around. There is a difference between a loving caring father and just having a man you call a father. A loving caring father tells and shows his children he loves them, takes an interest in whatever activities they are involved in, protects them from all harm, not harm, abuse or beat the shit out of them. I tell my daughter I love her all the time and she tells me the same. She’s 16 now. Did I spank her, yes I did. Some of yall want to call that abuse. Go right ahead. She will be graduating high school next year and off to college to start a life of her own, but daddy will always be there whenever she needs me. I do allow her to go to parties with her friends but any boy who wants to date or take her out, I must meet his father or father figure, otherwise no date. Any loving father will do whatever he thinks is necessary to protect his daughter. If Creflo Dollar loves his daughter and she loves him, to hell with what yall have to say. None of yall were there in that house so just stop trying to compare his situation with what happened to you when you were a child. Your daddy didn’t love you because he didn’t know how. Ask God to heal you. Where is your faith? Go start a business so you can leave something behind for your children so if some knucklehead thug does beat the shit out of them or abuse them they can afford to survive on their own. Now that’s real talk. Where are the girls and women who had a loving caring father in the home?

      • There was enough of a mark for him to be arrested, and from what I’ve heard fromother sources, forbidden to have contact with her. That said, no one said you shouldn’t discipline or parent your daughter. I asked whether it is appropriate for a grown man to slap, choke, punch OR spank a fifteen year old girl. That is qualitatively different than u spanking your 6 yr old. So if we’re gonna dialogue, let’s not do it based on your mischaracterizations of the arguments.

      • Wow – so no one against corporal punishment was loved by their father? Because your daughter is graduating high school you did the right thing by hitting her? Good – maybe she will marry a man just like daddy. One that will hit her to “guide” her in the right direction. Or, are you the only one that gets to hit your daughter? I mean, her husband will love her deeply and only hit her the “right” way. It won’t be abuse, just guidance – right?
        Most people that survive any kind of abuse come out relatively fine. You are patting yourself on the back because your daughter is graduating high school next year – really?
        Stop thinking everyone is dysfunctional because they don’t see the world as you do. Your daughter telling you she loves you means every decision you made was right? Good, so if she tells her husband that “guides” her with a slap every now and then that she loves him – its all fine and good, right? Or, are you the only one who gets to hit her?
        What are the rules again? If you hit her its love, but its not love if someone else hits her? Explain it to me, I’m kind of slow apparently.
        Now you also jumped to the conclusion that people who don’t spank are apparently poor and don’t have anything to leave to their children – WOW!!!!!!! That is the MOST arrogant thing I have read here.
        The most disturbing part of your post seems to be that love equals hitting. Many Black people grew up in a loving home, with a loving father, and were never hit. That fact that you categorize love with hitting is, well – scary. If you want to hit your daughter, whatever. But please don’t try to mesh words. Creflo doesn’t think he “abused” his daughter – even though he admits to throwing her to the floor and hitting her with his shoe. The only eye witness report we have from another adult in the home is that he choked her for five seconds and threw her to the ground. And yet – you categorize him as a loving father. I fear for your daughter if you think Creflo was a “loving” father when he did what his daughter and the eye witness (also a daughter) say he did. That is just appalling.

  189. Three things:
    1) James Dobson, the nation’s leading faith-based advocate of corporal punishment, does NOT advocate spanking teenagers because it’s ineffective and the humiliation of being spanked as a teenager breeds resentment toward the parent. Dobson says restrictions and removal of privileges make much better punishments for teens.

    2) Opponents of corporal punishment say that it teaches children that violence is a solution to problems, and they’re right. But violence, used as a last resort, is sometimes necessary to solve problems. And that’s how corporal punishment should be employed – as a last resort, when all other means of discipline have been exhausted. Too many parents use it as a first step.

    3) The reason churchgoers believe the pastor over his daughter is that people make an emotional investment in their church leaders, especially in nondenominational churches. If the daughters’ account is true, it means Dollar committed assault against his own child. And it means that his congregation’s emotional investment has gone bust. Rather than deal with that, it’s easier just to assume that the daughter is lying.

    • WithYah, I can see that anything written, you see as abuse so I understand how you coming from an abusive situation see things. I know it is difficult and sometimes impossible to see anther side without misquoting because your mind probably reflects back to the beatings, choking, punches, and kicking you may have experienced in your life. Had you and many others had a loving father, I think you would see things differently but I do understand. A loving father loves and protects his family and his children and those from that type family upbringing know and can relate to what I am talking about. There are a lot of abusive boyfriends and fathers who women chose to be with. I never hit my wife and I am sure my daughter will not grow up allowing some man to hit her. Daddy will make sure of that. I am sure you don’t see it that way and I understand. You grew up differently. Trying to dialogue on this subject with someone who grew up in an abusive home without 2 loving parents, father and mother, and someone who grew up with loving mom and dad is like mixing water and oil.

  190. Your comments were one sided, then you quoting scripture God definetly hold you accountable for his words and mixing them with fowl language. Don’t go pointing fingers because God is also watching YOU just remember that, when passing judgment on other.

  191. Here is what is suspicious to me. If Dollar was truly interested in supporting and nurturing his family, it would seem to me that instead of standing in front of the congregation and disavowing the allegations against him he would immediately ask for prayer from the congregation for himself and his daughter. Standing in front of everyone and denouncing her as a liar is only causing her emotional and psychological abuse. If he were truly the head of his household, as many commenters on this blog seem to suggest, then he would be concerned foremost with protecting his family. Forget his reputation or what the congregation thinks, what does his daughter think of him? When she grows older how will she reflect upon the way her father handled the situation? What mark will this leave on her life? No matter the facts of the case he is to be her protector, not the other way around.

  192. Thank you so much for this post. It is well-thought-out and well-articulated. I wanted to quote my favorite portion of this when sharing it on FB, but I cannot narrow it down to two or three favorite parts. The whole post is golden brilliance.

    Keep sharing the truth. Do not stop. You are on the right track; do not be swayed.

  193. i have a problem with this whole case yes i know teen agers can be out of controlled at times but my question is this what does his wife really has to say about this? she has been very silent on the issue i know you can play the role like she has his back in this but come on are you afraid of him to those are her children to stand and say something i dont know any black woman who will stand by and let someone harm her children maybe its me but she needs to say something thank you

  194. @MydaughtersDaddy you hit the nail on the head man. I try to see both sides even though I am like you, a loving father. A real caring father will do what he thinks is best to love and protect his family. That does not mean choking and punching, for you all who experienced abuse. I think this is a call for help from women who never experienced the love from a caring father. Continued abuse is the sign of a family in need of help. What daughter will continue to tell her father how much she loves and cares for him if she is being beaten by him? Bill Cosby wrote about abuse in the black family which was very interesting. I can see from reading some of the stuff on here that very few ever had an opportunity to experience the love of their fathers. They instead experienced abuse. They never heard their fathers say, I love you. They probably never told their fathers that and meant it. They grew up and perhaps their children never knew what is was like to have a loving father in the home. That is the root of this entire abuse issure. One thing I did not see addressed and that is, since no one was there in the home of this Pastor, what if drugs were found and the pastor was trying to not only protect his daughter but deal with that privately. Has anybody’s teen ever used drugs and you found them in your house? I am sure that has never happened to anybody here. I know I would not only go off on my daughter, but probably be serving time. Those in my neighborhood, not knowing the circumstances, would probably call me an abuser just as some here would.

    • “What daughter will continue to tell her father how much she loves and cares for him if she is being beaten by him?”

      One that loves him even though he beats her? One that *says* she loves him so that she won’t be beaten by him again?

      “One thing I did not see addressed and that is, since no one was there in the home of this Pastor, what if drugs were found and the pastor was trying to not only protect his daughter but deal with that privately.”

      Well, since that hasn’t been suggested to be the case and we’re just involved in some kind of masturbatory exercise, what it Creflo is really a woman? Or the cop that arrested him is the ex-boyfriend of his wife? Or what if the family dog called the police but mixed up the names and it was really the daughter that chokeslammed Creflo?

      I mean, what if, since we’re just spitballin’….?

      “I know I would not only go off on my daughter, but probably be serving time. Those in my neighborhood, not knowing the circumstances, would probably call me an abuser just as some here would.”

      The problem is, sir, that they’d be right–you WOULD be an abuser–and you don’t even get it.

      • haha I liked the theory about the dog. Hahhahaha (I don’t know why i think that is so funny!)

        But seriously this: “The problem is, sir, that they’d be right–you WOULD be an abuser–and you don’t even get it” is spot on.

  195. Great essay! One thing I would add is that it’s not only females who haven’t been adequately protected from this mindset, even if they have particular vulnerability. Some of your readers may be familiar with the recent case of Judge Herman Thomas in Alabama. There was also another pastor in Atlanta ten years ago, Rev. Arthur Allen. And just last year, we had self-described mentor Devery Broox whipping a 7-year-old boy so severely as to leave scars.

  196. The kids of today are ungrateful, greedy and think they know it all, They are given too much and know the wrong things due to internet, smart phones, meeting the wrong people over the internet. No means no from any parent or whoever disagrees
    can raise the child. Once a parent told a child they could not go to a party and the
    child when to her room slamming her door in anger. The next morning she awoke
    to the news of four of her friends who went to the party and was drinking – had a car
    accident and was killed. Call it what you want but I call it parent instinct. No means
    no without any lies attached. I certainly would remove all privileges and cars given
    to Cleflo’s daughter and let her realize her love and care she gets from her parents.
    Try keeping a teen from getting drunk, on drugs or pregnant today is not an easy job
    for some parents as teens in America are out of control. Preachers kids have always
    been the worst kids–trying to fit in and that is in the wrong crowd due to the pressure
    other kids put upon them for being Preachers kids. Let us all pray for all kids as we
    know that it does not matter who teens parents are some kids will just be bad kids.

    • Yes there are kids today who are out of control. That has always been the case. Every generation has in it those who break the rules, defy societal standards of appropriate behavior and/or those who for whatever reason just don’t fit in. It is the nature of teens to push against the boundaries in their lives in order to establish their own independence and distinguish themselves from their parents and their parents generation. That having been said, the post was not talking about young people in general but Creflo Dollar’s daughter and his treatment of her specifically. Your post assumes that because “children are bad” Rev. Dollar’s daughter must have done something to justify her father’s reaction to her request to go to a party the following night and then her refusal to talk to him later. Even if we accept the premise that the daughter was in the wrong, Dollar’s response was inappropriate. He is the parent. He is the adult. It is his responsibility and obligation to teach his daughter how to be in the world. There is no such thing as spanking a 15 year old. You are either beating them if they don’t fight back or fighting them if they do. Neither Discipline, training, love, nor good intentions is a part of that scenario. This is what I know. If I am so out of control that I am hurting my daughter, I would want her to call someone for help even if it is the police. It is my job to love and protect my child, even if she needs protection from me. Our children are not our property to do with as we choose. They are placed in our care for a period of time so that we can help them develop into happy, well adjusted, productive citizens of the world. Beating a teenager will accomplish none of that.

      • Response to Sharon Johnson, I do see your side and my reply is neither of us know the true story and maybe we need not respond to this particular situation. I do apologize but I should have use the word “some” as I truly do not like putting everyone in the same box.
        But I still believe disciple is a must–it is even in the Bible and I do know that “some” children abuse the system of reporting abuse also.
        So let us pray for the truth and positive outcome for both the Pastor and his daughter. P.S., I am not a fan of this Pastor as he speaks in tongues without an interpreter.
        Rasheeda Harris

    • @Carolyn

      You claim beating a child will keep them from “being like Rihanna”—just so you know, Rihanna herself has admitted she was abused by her own father as a child, which is why she ended up in abusive relationships with dudes like her ex Chris Brown, who himself grew up in an abusive household.

      @Harris

      Of course Dollar should have taken away all his daughter’s privileges if she had done something wrong—but how the hell does simply walking away from someone and telling them you don’t want to talk to them justify getting jumped on, choked and beaten with a shoe? I mean,seriously, the pastor sounds like he has major anger management problems—it sounded like he just overreacted to the situation and made things worse than they actually were. I could see if she cursed him out or threatened him, but that wasn’t the case. I think he just thought, “I’m the pastor—how dare she say she dosen’t want to talk to me!” and snapped—sounds like a control thing on his part. Also just because a brother is a pastor, that dosen’t give him carte blanche to do whatever the hell he wants to somebody and get away with it,even if it’s his own daughter

      • That’s another reason why after a certain age parents should refrain from spanking their children. I can vouch that once the child becomes bigger that parent then sees the kid as a blossoming adult and goes harder than necessary. Sometimes the kid may even fight back or try to evade the parent. For instance if I had child, especially a son, as a woman I would never try such a thing with him. At fifteen he is becoming a man and hitting him could have terrible effects. Once I received the butt whooping of my life for a bad report-card. I was 10 going on 11. I was hit so hard I fell on the floor and my underwear ( why am I laughing as I post this?) fell around my ankles ( I had on a t shirt). The spanking stopped for a while so I could pull up my shorts. I was whooped from the back of the house to the front for a long time. When I got up, I was covered in welts. My self esteem was so low after that. I felt like a terrible child. I wasn’t spanked a lot. However, when I was it was memorable. Once I was grabbed by the ponytail and jerked around. I know the black people on here are like, that ain’t nothing. But it really did something to me on the inside.

  197. Thanks for writing this. The whole incident is sad and questionable on many levels. To give a father a standing ovation for basically saying his daughters are liars…it’s nothing to be glad or rejoice about. If he was arrested wrongfully, it still seems like he was being too prideful about a possible case of injustice. Especially since the truth of the matter hasn’t been decided by the courts, and it may never be known to anyone outside of who was there when it happened. It’s sad for the family if they are both lying. Their daughters are not going down a positive path if that’s the case. If the daughters are telling the truth…heaven help them as I’m not sure they will be believed by anyone other than our Lord, and then Pastor Dollar will have to deal with it at the pearly gates.

    • Jesus was not associated with any particular political standpoint. He was not a Feminist, chauvinist, environmentalist, democrat republican, etc. If his teachings so happened to align with a particular factions political standpoint, then you can feel good about believing that standpoint.
      It’s important for us all to understand that Creflo Dollar did wrong, but we also are doing wrong by making a determination that he is not worthy of serving God if that’s where God put him. Recognize the wrong but do not judge or poison others minds regarding the goodness of God’s church. Everyone who serves as a Pastor is not necessarily ordained by God, as they should be. Everyone who claims to be a Christian doesnt believe, or struggle to live by God’s law as a Christian should. So be careful not to attack the religion for the behavior of a man. We don’t know enough to be that certain. Govern yourselves according to God’s law, love even the ones who you feel compelled to hate, and continue to learn what God wants from you. One last thing, the truth is not in the black ink and pages of your Bible. You can memorize the entire Bible and only be able claim you have a good memory. The truth will only come from you living what you learn and building a personal relationship with God through prayer.

  198. A long time ago, I think I was about four years old. I got into trouble for misbehaving. As a consequence I received a few light taps to my hips or “spanking.” Days later I heard my mother scolding my sister who was in her late teens for do something she wasn’t supposed to do. Who knows what it was. I can’t remember. I asked my mother why she didn’t give my older sister a spanking. She replied ” she is older now. Spankings are for smaller kids. As your child gets older, you’re supposed to deal with things in a different way.” The point is, while I don’t fault that preacher for trying to keep his young and impressionable daughter from going to a party he forbade her to attend, spankings and manhandling is for younger kids. Like a spanking takes on a different context the older the child gets, especially when the parent is a different sex than their child. My dad tried to spank me with a belt when I was 14 years old. I love my dad, but at that age a belt to the ass was something totally different. I felt as if I were about to be violated.

    • He was pissed too, like he was going to do more than just spanking me. I screamed and tried to close the door. ……….it’s different when you’re older.

    • I agree with you, punishment should be age appropiate. But I would add that there is a cultural context too. In the US a 14 year old girl is too old for a man to whoop like that, but it depends on the norms of one’s own society. For instance, I’ve seen some African brothers get into trouble trying to apply old world discipline where in the States. And conversely, I’m sure that many folks in western Europe would be horrified to witness, a two year old getting their bottom smacked, by their American parent.

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